When kids believe in Santa Claus there’s a naughty and nice list. Does one child get to declare I don’t believe in Santa therefore I get a gift from Santa no matter what I do, while the other child plays by the rules to get a gift from Santa? Usually the non-believing child no longer gets a gift from Santa but from mom and dad.
Marriage is a gift from God and we believers live under His law, if you don’t believe and live by Gods law, why should you get a gift of God that is for His believers? Have a civil union that isn’t a gift from God but a gift of mans law.
Does a Mathematician rant and rave and go ape-chit offended with a book containing words because it is not all numbers? Atheists and homosexuals just want to snatch the lolly from another. Miserable Nellie Olesons...the lot of them!
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No. Marriage is a legal contract. Anyone , gay or straight, should have the right to marry whoever they want.
Atheists and homosexuals just want to snatch the lolly from another.
No one is going to take your right to marry away.
OK, they finally admit that their god is just like Santa Claus.
Does a Mathematician rant and rave and go ape-chit offended with a book containing words because it is not all numbers?
No, that's your department. Your ilk are always complaining because God is left out of this or that.
Miserable Nellie Olesons...the lot of them!
What is this, 1975? I know Little House on the Prarie is still on TV in reruns, but it hasn't been relevant to modern culture since the 70's. But then I should expect fundies to be always behind the times. They're still complaining about backwards messages in rock music and Harry Potter.
So, I guess we have established that these folks will never accept gay marriage.
But why do we have to redefine marriage? Can't we just redefine civil unions? If the law is changed to make civil unions equivalent in all way to marriage, doesn't everybody win?
@VoiceofKane
"If the law is changed to make civil unions equivalent in all way to marriage, doesn't everybody win?"
No. As long as you're dividing people into groups and saying "Group A can have this, and Group 2 can have that", it's discrimination.
What you're saying is that Rosa Parks had nothing to complain about, because the back of the bus goes to the same stops as the front of the bus.
Nice. Now you go enjoy your altered pagan festival three months from now, you miserable Nellie Oleson!
BTW, props for comparing your version of God to Santa Claus.
"When kids believe in Santa Claus there’s a naughty and nice list. Does one child get to declare I don’t believe in Santa therefore I get a gift from Santa no matter what I do, while the other child plays by the rules to get a gift from Santa? Usually the non-believing child no longer gets a gift from Santa but from mom and dad."
Your point?
"Marriage is a gift from God and we believers live under His law, if you don’t believe and live by Gods law, why should you get a gift of God that is for His believers? Have a civil union that isn’t a gift from God but a gift of mans law."
Marriage is not a "gift from God" you moron. The Catholic Church didn't even have a ceremony for it, nor was a priest required to be present, until just a few hundred years ago. Until then it was an entirely private matter.
Even today you can be married without any sort of religious ceremony, so what exactly makes it a "gift from God"?
"Does a Mathematician rant and rave and go ape-chit offended with a book containing words because it is not all numbers? Atheists and homosexuals just want to snatch the lolly from another. Miserable Nellie Olesons...the lot of them!"
You people are the ones that scream and cry like a five year old.
So you're upset becuase you finally figured out that God is just another form of the Santa ruse? You know, a fictional character who is supposed to do good things for you, but who's good deeds never really materialize and who's existence is never proven.
"Atheists and homosexuals just want to snatch the lolly from another."
I don't think that my being married (I am an atheist and so not believe in your god) will take anything away from you or your marriage. If my marriage somehow takes something away from your marriage, then the problem is with your marriage, not mine.
@Kane
Further, marriage HAS ALREADY BEEN REDEFINED.
Used to be one man several women. Or one man and woman of the same race, or every so often one woman many men. Marriage is by far from monolithic unchanging 'thing' and the legal state of marriage changed in the US in the last century already to allow for mixed race marriages. The gays deserve marriage as much as a mixed race couple deserve it, and we 'redefined' it for the latter.
I think what Voice of Kane is proposing is not that gay people have civil unions and straight people have marriage but rather that civil unions available to all take the place of marriage under the law and marriage is left as a solely religious institution under the discretion of churches (so you can have a religious gay marriage if you're a member of a church that's in favour of gay marriages). I don't really agree, though; I'm not religious but I'd still like to be able to refer to a spouse as "my wife". "My civil partner" doesn't have the same ring to it.
Except in the end, the gift from "Santa" and the gift from Mom and Dad are both still gifts from Mom and Dad at the end of the day. Rather like how your marriage still comes from the state no matter what you believe, really.
Analogy backfire, Irenic.
So the fundies have tried reasoning, that failed quickly. They tried force and that worked for a while but we eventually got out of their grasp. They tried putting on lab coats but they just looked silly. They tried to be as insane and loud as possible and that backfired. Now, apparently they're trying to put atheists out of work by using our arguments against theism, such as comparing God to Santa Claus.
Marriage pre-dates your death cult. Also, in my country, a religious marriage, or "a gift from God" as you would call it, provides no additional benefits than a non-religious marriage, or "a gift of mans (sic) law." Your argument is therefore invalid and your god is impotent. Also, as many others have pointed out, thanks for comparing your god to an imaginary story told to children.
@ VoiceofKane:
But why do we have to redefine marriage? Can't we just redefine civil unions? If the law is changed to make civil unions equivalent in all way to marriage, doesn't everybody win?
Separate but equal is inherently unequal. (Brown v. Board of Education )
Very well Irenic... you can have your marriage, we'll have civil unions...
Except your marriage will come with no legal rights, protections or meaning... ok?
What's that? Not fair, you say? But believers don't get gifts from mom and dad, they get them from Santa... don't go fucking complaining that you don't get the goodies from both sides when you are actively trying to stop others from getting the goodies from just one side.
"Does a Mathematician rant and rave and go ape-chit offended with a book containing words because it is not all numbers?"
You're not familiar with "word problems", are you? They're pretty standard in elementary school or higher.
"Does a Mathematician rant and rave and go ape-chit offended with a book containing words because it is not all numbers?"
No, but a fundie "rants and raves and goes ape-chit[sic]" when a marriage contains gays because it isn't all straight people.
Atheists and homosexuals just want to snatch the lolly from another.
Seriously?
MARRIAGE IS NOT A ZERO SUM RESOURCE! There is not a fixed quantity of marriage. It isn't even a resource, so you cannot steal marriage away from someone the way you would "snatch the lolly" from someone.
If your marriage is so fragile, that two men or two women getting married will actually destroy here's a tip: you're probably married to the wrong person!
No one , not a single person on this planet gets a gift from a real Santa. All kids get gifts from their parents, relatives or possibly a friend of the child or of the parents.
The naughty list can be used to encourage a very young child to behave but usually they will get some gifta anyway.
Any comparison between kids with Santa and adults with God is purely garbage.
Marriage is a purely secular relationship recognised by a government usually with some obligation and benefit of the married parties.
Does one child get to declare I don’t believe in Santa therefore I get a gift from Santa no matter what I do ...
No, nobody gets a gift from Santa, whether they believe in him or not. "Polar Express" was a movie, not real life.
I nominate Irenic for the "World's Worst Analogy" Award.
Wow, unless Irenic still believes in Santa Claus, I do not see how s/he could possibly have missed the point.
It doesn't matter if the child believes in Santa Claus or not, the gifts ultimately come from the child's parents or caretakers.
It doesn't matter if a supreme deity exists or not, the marriage is ultimately the state's recognition of the union between consenting adults.
God is as insignificant to marriages as Santa is to presents.
I must be dense. Where do these people get the idea that marriage is from their "God?"
The last time I looked, marriage was an institution of the state. Gods and religion got involved simply because back then they were completely intertwined with the state.
Marriage is not, nor has it ever been, a gift from God. In the beginning it was for political unions predominantly. The common folk didn't give a shit. In the United States, it is the state that legitimizes marriage, therefore marriage is defined by man's laws and will evolve accordingly.
Sucks to be you.
Actually I don't think this is that stupid.
Marriage has existed in both secular and religious contexts throughout history. It predates Christianity and has even been found in ancient societies which had no contact with Judaism, which disproves the idea that it comes exclusively from the Christian God. However, there is nevertheless a long tradition of Christian marriage and even irreligious people today commonly wed in a church. I think that the concept of marriage and the legal privileges it entails need to be completely separate. I think that if governments only recognized civil unions for all, regardless of gender, and left the term "marriage" as undefined by the government and solely in the domain of private (perhaps religious) society, we could all stop arguing with each other.
@Filin De Blanc:
Well, I think under this system we would allow the terms "husband" and "wife" to be used however people like, including by and for same-sex and irreligious couples. Government paperwork would say "civil partner," but who cares what the paperwork says, right?
Make up your minds, did Jesus die for my sins or didn't he?
If he did then I don't need to pay this spiritual toll to get salvation because, as you guys are so fond of saying, our sins are paid for.
If he didn't then I owe him nothing and I can be free to mind my own business without begging and scraping to your sky-bully.
Every culture on the face of the planet has marriages. Marriage has nothing to do with God, with religion, and for the longest time, it had nothing to do with love either.
Most kids come to the conclusion sooner or later that there is no Santa Clause. But, if you don't believe in him, you won't expect presents from him, surely. ALL kids get their gifts from mum and dad, stupid.
Marriage is a legal contract between two (or more) legal adults. We who don't believe can still enter into a legal contract.
Your imaginary Mathematician sounds more like a religious fundie than an agnostic/atheist, actually.
Atheists and homosexuals just want to be left alone to live their life in peace.
First, marriage, gay or not, IS A CIVIL UNION. Second, Santa is always MOM AND DAD. It's just a white lie to make them happy. Analogy fail.
Marriage is not yours.
Fucking deal, asshole.
The metaphore doesn't hold water for a simple reason. The little children get presents from mom and dad, regardless whether they're told it comes from Santa or not. Or do you believe in Santa still, at your age?
Funny how this person reminds me of the die-hard social constructionist profs I've had at university- but on the other side of the political spectrum. "IF YOU BELIEVE IN IT, IT'S REAL, AND IF YOU DON'T, IT'S NOT!"
> I think that if governments only recognized civil unions for all, regardless of gender, and left the term "marriage" as undefined by the government and solely in the domain of private (perhaps religious) society, we could all stop arguing with each other.
I would love that, but would not love dealing with the inevitable "THEY BANNED MARRIAGES BECAUSE OF THE GAYS!" complaints.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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