Interestingly, just as Spengler predicted in Decline of the West, as our civilization gets farther from its foundational texts, i.e. its myths are analyzed out of existence, the more things fall apart.
I'm not a Christian but I know wisdom when I see it, and there is a good reason this wisdom was written down a long time ago. Humans have not really changed biologically in 10,000 years or more...but our surroundings have seen rapid and revolutionary changes in that time. Civilization has sprung up, and as Freud pointed out, much of the daily struggle man has results from the combatting tendencies of his animal nature vs. the demands of civilization. (Love him or hate him, I think Freud was basically right in Civilization and Its Discontents.)
Religions can be valuable as ways to try and control some of man's (and woman's) nature. Like it or not, as we have lost touch with religion in our society, the worse things have become and the worse they're going to get.
38 comments
oddly enough, the parts of the world that are most notably becoming worse places to live in seem to be the most religious ones. the parts that are most obviously secularizing tend to be peaceful, well off, and improving.
"Religions can be valuable as ways to try and control some of man's (and woman's) nature."
"can be valuable as ways to try and control..."
Depends on who's doing the controlling, and for what purpose.
You know there was a time religion was at an all time high and everywhere was theocratic. It was called the dark ages.
Did religion invent the telephone, the car, the vaccine, the plane, the t.v, the internet the computer, antibiotics, aseptic operations and anaesthetic?
Of course it did....
Eh, not really THAT fundie but it's wrong.
Religion may have been valid a couple thousand years ago, where mankind only look up and saw the moon. I'm sure if we were alive during that time we would worship it as a god to!
But religion now only holds the world back from scientific progress.
Ok I made #1752187 and I'm just adding to it.
The opinion that religion has an important part to play in society, when it is presented in a calm and measured way without resorting to any attack or hate, is a valid opinion.
And you may see some of what guest said as wrong, I wouldn't agree that society has declined over the past 10,000, but simply wrong in your opinion or the opinion of most people is different from the special levels of arrogant stupidity that I'd say is necessary for something to really be fundie.
You might not agree with it, but it's still a valid opinion.
Gonna go with Oswald Spengler? Really? Is that before or after the nervous breakdown?
And lots of things have been written down from long ago, but wisdom? Not really.
Religions can be valuable as ways to try and control some of man's (and woman's) nature.
At least you admit that religion is used to control people. Why you think this is a good thing is beyond me.
Like it or not, as we have lost touch with religion in our society, the worse things have become and the worse they're going to get.
I'm shocked to know that our society is worse now than in the Dark Ages when the Church was in charge.
Well then, why aren't we bashing each other over the head with clubs over a mate? That's what the cavemen of old did, so it must be ancient wisdom!
That's how dumb you sound right now.
@The Dude Abides
Yes, it is a valid opinion, because every opinion is valid. David J Stewart's opinion is valid. But we reserve OUR right of opinion to point out the obvious flaws in this one. I agree it isn't a fundie really. But it is still a stupid argument. At least he tries to make valid points instead of flinging bible verses at everyone.
According to this guy, the earth is flat and the earth is the centre of the universe and illness is caused by spirits. That's what the ancients thought. And they had wisdom!
Being a RoK'er, he probably has some pretty twisted ideas of progress and decline. And this site is a living testament to the falseness of guest's idea.
But the sentiment is pretty standard religion.
I don't agree with the sentiment, but if every person who thinks that religion has a valuable role to play in society is a crazy fundie who needs to be heckled, this site should buy a lot more server space. Because the vast majority of the human population probably belong to that category.
I keep hearing that the world is falling apart and that we've lost our way. Sure, anecdotal evidence seems to say that's true but the actual data doesn't bear it out. Yes, we see crime and horror all over the news but we also now have a 24 hour news cycle (which is consequently able to report more events), something not even possible 30 years ago. We are able to 3D print organs and world poverty is lower than it has been since we started keeping track of it. There are even plans to colonize Mars in the future. If this is the "fall" of civilization then I'll grab more tripwires.
"Religion may have been valid a couple thousand years ago, where mankind only look up and saw the moon. I'm sure if we were alive during that time we would worship it as a god to!"
Back some time when I was in school, I started thinking religion had a definite "a tradition being continued just because it's tradition" element to it. It was something previous generations, who knew a LOT less about life, the universe and everything than we do now, believed.
It has been a rather disconcerting experience to realize that even in so-called developed countries, like in Europe or North America to name some, there are *still* people who think that everything their religion's Holy Scripture says is truth, is truth.
Like Christian fundies who think evolution is wrong because Genesis and that Noah's Flood actually happened.
@commonbloodysense
Never said you didn't have that right. There's nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws in his argument and I agree that there are flaws. There's also nothing wrong with saying it is fundie, I was just expressing my opinion that it isn't.
"Religions can be valuable as ways to try and control some of man's (and woman's) nature" - look at the words he uses in that statement - it's worded in a very vague, non committal way. Same with the rest of the quote. It is true that religion has THE POTENTIAL to influence for good. If you're not 100% anti religion you should be able to see that. I think he meant it a bit stronger than that which is why I wouldn't say I agree with him, but still compare his speculation to the rigid stubborn insistence that they are right that usually characterises fundies.
I haven't look at the forum so maybe he is a crazy fundie, but this one quote alone I wouldn't call fundie.
"Interestingly, just as Spengler predicted in Decline of the West, as our civilization gets farther from its foundational texts, i.e. its myths are analyzed out of existence, the more things fall apart."
Even if this were an accurate hypothesis, which it's not, COINCIDENCE DOES NOT DENOTE CAUSALITY!
@ #1752241
Sure, aside from all the sectarian bullshit, emotional manipulation, and fear-mongering, some religious organizations supply a sense of community, and a way for people to come together as a force of good and help each other... But can't we grow up and do that without all the superstition and mummery?
The idea that religion is necessary to civilization and the human condition is a viable one, although not necessarily true.
However, consider the source: the Return of Kings website. Viewed in that context, 'guest' will be saying or implying that because women are all shallow creatures who'll shag anything that makes their "gina tingle", religion is necessary to keep the stupid sluts in line so they don't breed with evil thugs (whom women naturally prefer, due to millions of years of evolution favouring the largest ALPHA caveman in the valley) and therefore cause the downfall of civilization.
Gotta agree to some extent with The Dude Abides.
Religion may not be so relevant now but there's plenty of very cogent arguments that it was highly effective as we moved from hunter-gatherers to settled tribes, agricultural settlements and cities and had to get along with our neighbours.
As we've progressed to countries, continents and towards global culture it's a bunch of different religions that's the problem. If we had a single world religion and didn't persecute non-believers, that would be less problematic.
Not that I'm suggesting that, mind. Just saying.
Spengler? Well he was always my favorite Ghostbuster.
Religion has outlived its usefulness. Humanity is trying to kick the habit, with moderate success.
as our civilization gets farther from its foundational texts, i.e. its myths are analyzed out of existence, the more things fall apart.
Yup, way back when, people were all smart like and had it all right. But now we're all dumb like and don't know shit.
All we have to do is read old myths that cavemen came up with, and we'll be back on track in no time.
Religion was the ball and chain we dragged with us in the struggle toward civilization. Advancements are made despite religion, not because of it.
@commonbloodysense
Every opinion is valid? You might want to think this through.
Religion works best when it's not overly dogmatic & 100% divorced from State.
When Religion & State are 100% apart, both remain purer & more just.
ORGANIZED Religion should go the way of the dodo and scriptures should have the brutish nasty Demiurgic junk excised. Those passages are not Divine.
Ideally, humanity should just ditch all Organized Religions and follow a more NeoPagan/Spiritual-But-Not-Religious path....alongside Deism, Atheism & Agnosticism. Time to wipe the slate clean & start over!
The first claim is basically right. As old foundational myths unravel the authority of the past is discarded. With inner turmoil we seek other beliefs, hopefully more rational, or maybe new comforting myths like new hearth fires around which we can cuddle, e.g. New Age myths.
The claim that human beings have not changed biologically in 10,000 years is obscure and unverifiable. What about the fact that breeding populations have adapted to high altitudes over the centuries?
Citing Freud as an authority is dubious these days. There's a massive counter-literature questioning his system. But he might have got some things right. Who doesn't?
The author is right about religion being a means of control. That's sound sociological functionalism. But the real issue is the character of those who control. If you are going to be controlled, wouldn't you prefer that it was liberal Christians rather than the psychopaths in Teheran?
Losing touch with religion in our society is ambivalent. If you are a freethinker then losing touch can be liberating. Personally I've kept in touch by seeking out great music and art that issued from Christianity. And I enjoy religious poets like George Herbert.
Religion is all about tweaking the testosterone levels of disturbed twits to make them more fervent about death and violence. If knob heads can't bestride the world like glorious colossi, "Look at me Daddy, see how the virgins do fall at my feet", then they will kill and encourage others to do so too, out of spite.
Yeah, you're right, when the Roman and Norse Pantheons fell things went right to shit.
"not Fundie"
No, it's fundie, it's S.E. Cupp posing, "I'm not religious, but you gotta admit Christianity has only done good things, created democracies, laws and freedoms and society would completely fall apart without it"
BULL
You don't have to be religious to believe that maybe but you sure are getting your info through them.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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