Darius and Karin Viet, Answers In Genesis

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Quote# 88132

We agree that presuppositional apologetics is the ultimate biblical approach to apologetics. The common accusation that the presuppositionalist uses circular reasoning is actually true. In fact, everyone uses some degree of circular reasoning when defending his ultimate standard (though not everyone realizes this fact). Yet if used properly, this use of circular reasoning is not arbitrary and, therefore, not fallacious.

Contrary to what your non-Christian friend said, circular reasoning is surprisingly a valid argument. The conclusion does follow from the premises. Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy only when it is arbitrary, proving nothing beyond what it assumes.

[Emphasis added]

Darius and Karin Viet, Answers In Genesis 74 Comments [7/3/2012 3:43:27 AM]
Fundie Index: 91
Submitted By: Night Jaguar

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#1419293

Fireshark

Although I don't think they're exactly talking about circular reasoning. What I think they're saying is that it's OK to start with an assumption (like "God exists"), and reason from there. I don't think they're defending "God exists, therefore God exists."

7/3/2012 6:16:31 PM

#1419297

The Duelist

@His4Life, some evidence for that claim might be nice. Evidence for the enslavement of the Hebrews of Egypt and the Red Sea crossing, independent corroboration for the miracles and teachings of Jesus, etc.

7/3/2012 6:33:34 PM

#1419298

Fireshark

@Duelist

What sort of evidence would you like? Most of what we know about the ancient world doesn't exactly come from complete, detailed, independently verifiable sources. For example, we have only a few sources that tell much about Emperor Nero's rule, they contradict each other, and they were written with an agenda. So I think the Bible could be seen as enough to at least strongly suggest that it has some of its roots in history on things like the history of Israel or the teachings of Jesus (of course, I'm not saying you should believe in miracles or anything else that would need extraordinary evidence).

You also have to consider the possible agenda when anything is written. For example, the differences between the gospels can be explained by the audiences they were written for, but they each (independently?) say some of the same things, presumably based on a couple generations of oral tradition (Probably not enough time to screw things up TOO much). They wouldn't just make something up unless they had a specific reason. So could miracles have been made up to sell the gospel? Sure. But that doesn't invalidate everything that's written in the Bible (glimpses into history, ancient life, etc) just because it's a religious text.

7/3/2012 6:49:37 PM

#1419315

Detrs

Yes, fireshark, all good fiction incorporates elements from reality.

7/3/2012 9:24:02 PM

#1419326

Osiris

The conclusion follows from the premise because the premise follows from the conclusion because the conclusion follows from the premise because the premise follows from the conclusion because the conclusion...

*several billion years later*

...because the premise follows from the conclusion.

7/3/2012 11:23:56 PM

#1419340

Urbenmyth

@ 1419067
That's not the same thing. A value can be justified that way (I value it as an end in itself), but this isn't talking about that, it's talking about factual claims. You can't justify those by pointing to themselves

@ 1419246
Maths is not an "unjustifiable assertion" it is necessarily true, and therefore we don't need to prove it. Base sensory information (e.g "I am on a computer") and information about our own minds (e.g "I am happy") also count as not needing justification.

7/4/2012 1:28:35 AM

#1419380

Ebon

I think that crunch was my brain skipping gears.

7/4/2012 6:37:30 AM

#1419383

farpadokly

If it's "presuppositional" then logic has already gone out the window. You've already failed to make it coherent.
In fact, this whole argument is circular in itself, and takes philosophy right back to the middle ages. It's not only pre-empirical, it's pre-Kantian, pre-Descartian, pre-rationalist. It hasn't caught up with even the 17th century.
A proposition can be "non-arbitrary" and at the same time fallacious. But as it happens, arguing that the Bible is true because the Bible says so IS arbitrary. And as for "proving nothing beyond what it assumes", you haven't even proved what you assume, that's why it's a fallacy.

7/4/2012 6:50:54 AM

#1419420

Pule Thamex

Presuppositional apologetics obvious weaknesses are its strengths. The strengths of presuppositional apologetics are its obvious weak points. All in all, it's something you can have complete faith in.

7/4/2012 9:27:19 AM

#1419578

His4Life

Ok, let's talk evidence. What kind of evidence do you want? They have found the Egyptian chariots under the Red Sea. If you want to talk science, the Bible talks science. If you want to talk history, the Bible talks history. If you want to talk philosophy, the Bible talks philosophy. God gives us all the evidence we need in creation.

-
Dorie R. Bentjen, Deaconess and Minister
Certificate of Prophetic Ministry, 2003
Degree of Ordination in Lay Ministry, 2012
"Jesus is Love!"

7/4/2012 2:36:15 PM

#1419607

7/4/2012 3:58:40 PM

#1419678

zomgwtfbbq

@His4Life
Ok, let's talk evidence. What kind of evidence do you want? They have found the Egyptian chariots under the Red Sea.

They found a SINGLE CHARIOT WHEEL in the red sea. By the way, "they" is a crazy religious nutter, so take what they said with a grain of salt. This wheel could have been there for the more obvious reason of, say, "it fell off a boat". After all, if the entire egyptian army was drowned in the red sea, we would expect to find a lot more than one single wheel.

Not to mention we would also expect to find the remains of a tribe of >600k wandering 40 years in the desert, no such remains exist (and the Israelis have been looking for a LONG TIME with plenty of motivation.) Much smaller and older wandering groups spending less time in that desert have still left tracks, so why not the Israelites?

Also, no record of any plagues or drowned emperors in Egyptian history, not to mention at the time of the Exodus Egypt was going through one of its strongest economic times.

Face it, of all the Bible stories, the Exodus is probably the second most easy to falsify. It never happened. You can deal with the results of that in your own way, but the facts are the facts, and the evidence is in.

7/4/2012 8:55:16 PM

#1419697

Somewhere in my house is a book called The Day My Butt Went Psycho.

The setting of this book is in a world where butts can remove themselves from human beings and live sentient lives.

Poppycock, you say? Why, no, good sir, for right when you open the book you find a little passage where the main character of the book says that everything in it is a true story--"Not even the names have been changed"--and he thanks the author for ghostwriting his autobiography.

So since the book says it's true, well, I'm inclined to believe it.

7/4/2012 11:51:12 PM

#1419992

Mister Spak

@his4life:

"Ok, let's talk evidence. What kind of evidence do you want? They have found the Egyptian chariots under the Red Sea."

And we also found the seam where the moon was split in the famous muslim miracle.

http://www.thewaytotruth.org/prophetmuhammad/splittingofthemoon.html

http://islamgreatreligion.wordpress.com/2008/08/20/miracle-splitting-of-the-moon/

Islam is the real religion.

7/5/2012 9:36:47 AM

#1420141

His4Life

No, multiple chariot wheels were found, as well as entire chariots with Egyptian skeletons found in the mud. They have also found the Israelites' campsites and smalls shrines in the desert where they worshipped.

As far as Islam goes, that might have happened. Satan can also work miracles to deceive. The Bible warns us not to look for signs and wonders.

-
Dorie R. Bentjen, Deaconess and Minister
Certificate of Prophetic Ministry, 2003
Degree of Ordination in Lay Ministry, 2012
"Jesus is Love!"

7/5/2012 6:07:34 PM

#1420174

zomgwtfbbq

@His4Life
[citation needed] [citation needed] [citation needed]

Multiple "wheels" have been found, one at a time by various religious nutters. Many were actually just interesting shaped coral. Show me ONE example of a verified find of the remains of AN ENTIRE FUCKING ARMY. Please, just one news article. Of course, you won't, because such a thing does not exist. So feel free to avoid providing it yet continue to claim there isn't enough evidence of Evolution because you don't see 1 billion fossils showing graded change from primitive Ape to Human with every single Generation. Here's a nice list of "finds" from beneath the Red Sea from some guys who really love looking for this stuff:
http://www.squidoo.com/redseacrossing

Just some wheel shaped coral.

Existence of campsites and shrines in the Sinai is an example of different wondering tribes. Please provide evidence that these were JEWISH campsites and shrines. Also that the campsite was large enough to fit 600,000 men (+ women and children). A small shrine would clearly show that a SMALL group of people were there, as I have mentioned, there are many small groups of people who have wondered the Desert.

See http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch2.html#wandering for some information on what exactly has been found in Sinai.

Now your next response had better contain some sources, without such, you are basically just making shit up, which I suppose is pretty much par for the course for a creationist...

7/5/2012 9:59:30 PM

#1420178

Night Jaguar

"If you want to talk science, the Bible talks science. If you want to talk history, the Bible talks history. If you want to talk philosophy, the Bible talks philosophy. "

Science:
- All the evidence suggest the Earth and Universe are both much, much older than 10,000 years old.
- The evidence strongly suggest the theory of evolution is correct and all species of Earth did NOT appear spontaneously as it says in the Bible.
- The Earth is not flat as suggested by the Bible (Isaiah 40:22,1 Samuel 2:8, Matthew 4:8).
- The Earth is not the stationary as suggested by the Bible (Psalm 104:5, I Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 96:10).

History:
- No evidence of massive enslavement or Jews in Egypt or massive exodus of Jews. You'd expect to some if the numbers the Bible claimed were accurate.
- No evidence for massive Empire of Israel that stretched from the Euphrates to Eilath. Again, you'd expect such an empire to leave a lot of evidence behind.
- The crucifixtion eclipse seems to be completely made up.

Philosophy:
- No refutable argument of the Epicurean paradox given in the Bible
- No refutable argument of the Euthyphro dilemma given in the Bible

This is just a short list of the bullshit in the Bible, but I think you get the point.

The Bible actually reads like the writings of brutish, ignorant ancients with axes to grind. There's a lot political propaganda and boring details about priest rituals. It does not read like the work of a great intelligence that created the universe. Well, there's a very simple explanation for that....

7/5/2012 11:43:49 PM

#1420297

His4Life

How do we know they know they were Jewish campsites? Fossilized bagels.....

-
Dorie R. Bentjen, Deaconess and Minister
Certificate of Prophetic Ministry, 2003
Degree of Ordination in Lay Ministry, 2012
"Jesus is Love!"

7/6/2012 6:20:18 AM

#1420330

Circular reasoning works because . . . circular reasoning works?

At least he's consistent.

7/6/2012 7:09:08 AM

#1421392

zomgwtfbbq

@His4Life
Wow, what a surprise. You have not even attempted to respond to anything I mentioned. I never asked how they knew the campsites were Jewish, I already knew (and it's not fossilised bagels, it's the type of pottery plus the lack of pig bones). I asked for this evidence to be shown. You provided not a single scrap of evidence. Not even a refutation of my arguments. You are happy to just live in complete ignorance of the real world. I feel sorry for you.

7/9/2012 5:09:19 AM

#1422406

His4Life

Wow. What a surprise. A cocksucking atheist without a sense of humor.

-
Dorie R. Bentjen, Deaconess and Minister
Certificate of Prophetic Ministry, 2003
Degree of Ordination in Lay Ministry, 2012
"Jesus is Love!"

7/11/2012 6:05:52 AM

#1423462

zomgwtfbbq

@His4Life
And the final refuge of the incompetent, the ad hominem attack. Congratulations, your argument is destroyed, you know you have lost, yet you don't admit it to yourself just so you can continue with the cognitive dissonance of believing in a God for which you cannot find God reason to believe in.

"Jesus is love", ad you say in your signature. Way to show it. What a surprise, a stupid, hypocritical fundie.

7/14/2012 5:07:42 PM

#1429661

Seeker Lancer

CIRCULAR REASONING IS A LOGICAL FALLACY ALWAYS.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR BRAIN?

7/31/2012 8:28:25 AM

#1440681

Quantum Mechanic

Another F in 3rd grad introductory logic.

8/29/2012 9:29:22 AM

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