Canuovea

Anon-e-moose,

How the heck do you manage to write so long of a response without getting told your post is too long?

Also, you simply can't force people to like something, by law or otherwise. Well, most of the time you can't. Hitler tried it... Fundies try it all the time, like the Byzantine Empire, which managed to shoot itself in the foot because of that.

Isis-sama,

As for torture and hell... Paul doesn't actually go into it that much, he focused more on heaven. Then along came people like Augustine, who made a whole bunch of stuff up. Or, if you prefer, made more stuff up. Like Original Sin, for instance, which many other Augustinian contemporaries thought was absurd.

5/12/2012 12:35:58 AM

Anon-e-moose

To quote a fellow commenter in a past thread; and what a certain person in this thread who shall remain clueless would do well to read very carefully:

@Xotan

"Do you have to mention religion at all? Are you so utterly incapable of compassion and love that the only way you can relate to people is through your fundamentalist beliefs?

Besides, what makes you so sure that you too will escape hell. Read your Bible properly and with attention and you will see that fundamentalism is essentially a virulent form of self-righeouness that Jesus condemned in the Pharisees.

In believeing as you do that someone is going to hell, you are arrogating to yourself a decision that is god's alone. That is pride. In believing that you are saved is also pride and presumption. In even thinking as you do about hell and others you are setting limits to the power and the mercy of god. That is a blasphemy. For shame!"

Just because you 'think' - as in believe - that you are 'Saved', dare not presume that Matthew 7:1 doesn't apply to you, via everything you say, do and think now, lest you join those whom your 'God' will 'judge'. Mayhaps because of you and your self-righteous ilk, it's you right-wing fundies who will burn and be sodomised by demons for eternity, and we 'beknighted heathens' who will live in Heaven forever in your stead. There's nothing in your book of fairytales that says that this won't happen; but then Jesus doesn't actually condemn homosexuality in the NT - not word one by him...! [/smartarse] >:D

These fundamentalist Christians 'believed' that they were 'Saved'.

Committing the deadly sin of Pride, whilst 'believing' to be 'Saved'. Tut-tut. Now, what was it a certain man once said to a woman he'd just saved from a howling, stone-wielding, self-righteous, judgemental & hypocritical mob; and after he'd forgiven her for her misdeeds - in this case prostitution...? Oh yes, that's right: 'Go and sin no more'.

A certain someone in this thread who shall remain clueless has - as their track record here in FSTDT proves - sinned many times, whilst being 'Saved'. Matthew 7:1 does not give you the right to an 'opinion' about anything, never mind be judgemental about anyone not exactly like you (but then, not being exactly like you is a bad thing... how? At least we're not hypocrites, in claiming to be 'saved', yet 'believe' that 'Salvation' gives us carte blanche to be douchebag cunts to everyone else. That's why you'll never see Quakers, Unitarian Universalists, Sufi Muslims, Buddhists etc quoted here in FSTDT; keep themselves - and their beliefs - to themselves; don't bother anyone [least of all politically], they're not bothered by anyone).

Remember: James 2:17: 'Faith without works is dead'. Which is what all you right-wing fundies will be: dead. For eternity.

@Canuovea

Here in the UK, racist speech is illegal, as per Section 4 of the Public Order Act. Speech designed to outrage public morals, decency, and cause harassment, alarm & distress to others (especially minorities) is illegal under Section 5 of the Public Order Act (merely swearing at police will get you arrested. You do the maths). Several years ago, smoking in public restaurants, pubs, workplaces and generally anywhere enclosed where members of the public congregate was made illegal.

As a non-smoker, I have no problem with that. Nor am I racist, sexist, homophobic or anti-abortion. So what if laws force others to be Politically Correct? Again, I have no problem with that.

PROTIP: If Rush Limburger deigned (and dared) to show his face on UK TV, he - via OFCOM & it's legally enforceable laws - would be forced to be both left- and right-wing simultaneously ('Divide By Zero. O SHI-'?!). Forced balance in TV media (thus no UK arm of Faux News; if there were, and Sarah Failin appeared on such, she would have to be both fundie and Atheist - or else.)

'Forced neutrality in TV'? No 'opinions' allowed in our news? I have no problem with that III.

There's something to be said for our oft-criticised 'Nanny State'. It was that which resulted in the creation of our National Health Service in the late 1940s. Welcome to the 21st Century, USA. You have Obama to thank for catching up, re. Universal Healthcare; Cuba spenda as much on Health, as it does Defence after all...!

China - as are we in the UK - is working on Gene Therapy, as well as gene-based cures for various ailments. How's that 'Faith Healing' by 'prayer' working out for you, eh Texas...?! [/smug]

5/12/2012 1:22:11 PM

Isis-sama


As for torture and hell... Paul doesn't actually go into it that much, he focused more on heaven. Then along came people like Augustine, who made a whole bunch of stuff up. Or, if you prefer, made more stuff up. Like Original Sin, for instance, which many other Augustinian contemporaries thought was absurd.

@Canuovea

To be honest, I have no idea why people take Paul's opinions on heaven as having any basis on reality, even among people who take what the Bible says literally. According to the Bible, Paul was just a guy who had a vision of Jesus and then became a Christian. How exactly does that make him an expert on what God's will or Heaven is like? The other parts of the Bible at least claim that God or Jesus said such and such is wrong or right. How come the views of essentially one random Christian get quoted as fact nowadays when he, according to his own words, didn't know anything more than anyone else?

5/12/2012 4:41:46 PM

Canuovea

Anon-y-moose,

You can force people to say something, or not, by law. That doesn't mean they will like following that law.

And if you have no problem with it, all the better for you. Until they do something you have a problem with and there are no controls to prevent it. Nature of a unitary parliamentary system, I'm afraid.

Isis-sama,

Paul... ergh. Not only was Paul visited by Jesus (or so he claims), but everything he taught was divine revelation straight from God (or so he claimed). Basically, he claimed to speak for Jesus. That is why he is considered so important. And someone believed his claims (as opposed to those claims that went against his, which we know exist because he complains of them) and boom Niccea and Bible compilation.

Basically, Paul won so people believe him. Nevermind the fact that he thought the Kingdom of God would come in his lifetime. He explained Christians dying by saying they would get new bodies, I believe... so there is that.

5/12/2012 10:48:41 PM

His4Life

There is a lot here to respond to. I've been very busy these last few days, so please give me some time to catch up.

Paul is not the only one to focus on Heaven, rather than Hell - Jesus did as well. And that's what I would prefer to do. However, hell is also a reality described in the Bible and one we need to be aware of. Why believe Paul? Paul was directly commissioned by Jesus Christ as an apostle, or messenger. Some churches believe that the office of apostle passed away after the first century, but in my church, we continue to recognize modern day apostles. An apostle is someone who is directly commissioned by Jesus to go and carry his message to the world. Remember, as Christians, we believe Jesus is still alive, so the idea of someone encountering Jesus is not absurd if you believe that he is just as alive today as he was in the first century. That also means you can get to know him, just as easily as if he was walking around on Earth.

As far as the question about sodomy goes, I don't want to dwell on it, as it's something I've addressed before on this site. The verse comes from Daniel and refers to the unsaved being raised to "shame and public humiliation." Historically, the term for "public humiliation" was associated with sodomy. It was common for victorious generals to humiliate their prisoners in this way in ancient times. My pastor gave a talk on this subject a few years back and I can get his notes if it's something you'd like to study further. It's not a central issue in the Bible, though, so I don't really want to spend time on it; besides, even if you take the threat of humiliation out of the equation, you still have to deal with the Bible verses that describe hell in other ways. Taking the issue of sodomy out of the equation doesn't make the afterlife rosy for the unsaved.

Hope this helps.

5/13/2012 1:44:26 PM

Anon-e-moose

@Canuovea

Question: Is there a Westboro Baptist Church here in the UK? If your answer to that question is the only one possible, not only have you proved my point, but have also annihilated your own argument.

No 'WBC' - or it's equivalent - in the UK? Because such wouldn't be allowed to exist? I've said it before, but it bears repeating: I have no problem with that.

I bet there's a hell of a lot of people in the US who would agree with me too.

PROTIP: Before 2007, Tony & Cherie Blair were Church of England. As in Protestant. It wasn't until he'd been replaced as Prime Minister by Gordon Brown, that the Blairs admitted they'd become devout Roman Catholics. In our Parliament, openly admitting to be a fundie is a sure fire vote-killer, electorally. In the main political parties, your allegiances are to your country, monarch, political party, constituents, media, and God; and in that order. If you so much as imply in public that you're a fundie, the Chief Whips will put you right in no uncertain terms (losing your office, aides etc; to say nothing of losing any chance of advancing up the 'Greasy Pole' to a future cabinet position; the ambition of any member of a political party). If you're a member of Parliament - Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat - as far as you're concerned the Chief Whips/Party Leader are God, and you must accept this fact - as well as the party's policies (even if such policies conflict with your 'beliefs') - or face deselection at the next election, and kiss goodbye to your future political career.

So, y'see, our political system is extremely Secular** - true Separation of Church and State (even though we have a state religion, the Church of England*, lol) - if not outright Atheist. And as I must keep saying: I have no problem with that.

Even if the WBC's Home Office-ordered ban on entering the UK was lifted, remember: Sections 4 & 5 of the Public Order Act. Forced to have 'God Loves Gays' etc on their placards. That's how we roll in my country. Romans 13:1-5. Suck it, Fred Phelps.

If there's one thing we tolerant Brits will never tolerate, it's intolerance. Just ask fascist & Hitler-lover Oswald Mosley, after the Battle of Cable Street. The salt-of-the-earth, no-nonsense, support the underdog, pro-Jewish Cockneys made sure Nazism - and it's unjustifiable right-wing thinking - was never allowed to exist here. Denying the right to exist, of those who themselves want to deny racial & sexual minorities, women, and left-wingers their basic rights? And - via legislation - ensuring their unjustifiable right-wing/fundie way of thinking has no right to exist? I have no problem with that.

Related factoid: During the latter half of WWII, when US troops were stationed in the UK (especially prior to D-Day), the whites insisted that there were segregated pubs for black & white US personnel, but the British there refused; in the resulting fights between white and black troops, guess who the British patrons in said pubs sided with...?

...but then, having your country attacked by a right-wing inferior subhuman racist Nazi (who dared to think he had the right to have ideas above his station) will do that to you, I guess.

Moral: 'Then they came for the religious fundies & anti-democracy extreme right-wing Dominionists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a religious fundie or a Nazi. Because I was the one who reported them to the authorities for their unjustifiably bigoted 'beliefs'-based Thoughtcrimes.'

The Muslim Council of Great Britain are very pro-government & democracy. Proof? They keep the Home Office, Scotland Yard's Anti-Terrorist Section, and MI6 appraised of any & all Islamist extremist/Al-Qaeda activities & information related to them. As in their Thoughtcrimes. Said Home Office, Scotland Yard & MI6 shares this anti-terrorist info - Islamist extremist/Al-Qaeda Thoughtcrimes - with the FBI/CIA/NSA/Interpol/Mossad. Which has been proven to have prevented potential terrorist attacks in the UK, Europe, Israel & the US.

Your call, Canuovea.

*- Our religious clergy aren't allowed to vote. USA, take note.

**- India's political system is even more secular. And India is the the most religious country on the planet. Oh, teh irony.

5/14/2012 8:52:57 AM

Canuovea

Ah, Anon-e-moose,

You simply can't force people to like something. If the WBC were to come to Britain, you couldn't force them to like homosexuals. You could force them to not say what they think, maybe, but couldn't force them to change what they think. You could possibly expel them from the country, but... if they didn't feel like changing their minds, they wouldn't. Oppression can only go so far.

Oh, and there was a fascist party in the UK. Never got particularly powerful, but it was there.

Just think about it, Maggie Thatcher couldn't have done half the crap she did without the British system working as it was designed.

5/14/2012 1:14:08 PM

Anon-e-moose

@Canuovea

"Maggie Thatcher couldn't have done half the crap she did without the British system working as it was designed."

And look what happened to her - and the Tories - as a result; certainly in Scotland, when she introduced the Poll Tax there first.

Like her bum-chum Ronnie Raygun, she went loopy (but then, such are right-wingers: they're mentally inferior). There's a potential treatment for Alzheimer's (in it's early stages), so at least Sir Terry Pratchett can benefit from this new research. Pity that The real Antichrist Maggie Thatcher (*spit*) is too far gone for such to help that vile right-wing slimebag. [/Schadenfreude] >:D

5/15/2012 9:23:52 AM

Canuovea

Anon-e-moose,

What happened to Maggie is exactly what happened to the Labour Party before she came into power. Completely annihilated. Except, here is the thing, Maggie was in power for a ridiculous 11 or so years. And thanks to that, she could do whatever the heck she wanted. Because, hey, that is how the British system works.

Its fine if you agree with the leader, but if you don't? You get screwed. As the lefties in Britain well know.

And while Thatcher might be going mentally a bit, well, she is 86. Not a bad haul, especially for a politician.

5/15/2012 12:39:14 PM

Canuovea

Also, Anon-e-moose,

I find it odd that someone who attacks fundies would take so much joy in the suffering of another human being. Yeah, Thatcher was a nasty piece of work politically. But jumping about in joy because she is a victim of Alzheimer's? No better than the the fundies who cheered when Christopher Hitchens got throat cancer.

5/15/2012 6:07:08 PM

Anon-e-moose

@Canuovea

"would take so much joy in the suffering of another human being"

...who fucked up my country in ways that made what Hitler's Luftwaffe/V1s & V2s did to the UK in WWII far worse. In both instances, is the basis of my more than infinite hatred of everything & everyone right-wing.

This conversation is now at an end.

5/16/2012 9:55:54 AM

Canuovea

Anon-e-moose,

Thatcher and Hitler are quite different and you know it. While Thatcher might have screwed up Britain, she did so with the majority support of the British people for 11 years. And the British system worked as it was designed to. Not only is that a Godwin, but it is just a bad comparison.

And you hate people who think differently from you in one specific respect? Huh. Says bundles. Even I don't see a reason to hate right wingers, generally, I just disagree with most of their policies most of the time.

Anyway, as you say, conversation ended.

His4Life,

I was under the impression that the concept of Hell, just like Original Sin, was focused on more by Augustine. Paul mentions God, like a potter, creating some vessels for destruction, but doesn't go too much farther into the fate of those who don't get to Heaven. At least as far as I can recall.

5/16/2012 8:07:15 PM

Anon-e-moose

"I was struck by the fact that it really is insane, illogical, plain NUTS to choose to sin, to disbelieve God."

'Alcorn', eh...?



Well, as a Brony, I'm struck by the fact that it really is insane, illogical, plain NUTS to choose to be intolerant, to disbelieve Princess Celestia.

Because, unlike your so-called 'God', we can at least see this Alicorn, Alcorn.

Take a letter, reader of Randy: 'Dear Princess Celestia: today, I learned how it's bad to force your way of thinking upon everyone else; 'Pride' and 'Stubbornness' are traits among certain 'Humans' (not all of them, thank Lauren Faust!) that aren't shared in Equestria. Even Nightmare Moon eventually saw the error of her ways, when shown the power of Friendship, Forgiveness, and Love.'

7/4/2012 5:05:02 AM

Ebon

*deep sigh*

9/9/2012 7:41:59 AM

Quantum Mechanic

How old are you?
Four?

11/14/2012 11:23:47 AM