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Filin De Blanc

@His4Life: Anyone who can enjoy Heaven knowing that the damned are being tortured in Hell doesn't deserve to go to Heaven to start with.

Isis-sama

Said by His4Life - "It's a common misconception that we will be disembodied souls in eternity. What the Bible actually teaches is that God will resurrect both he saved and the unsaved when Christ returns, giving both of them imperishable physical bodies similar to the bodies we have now, but not subject to death. It's these bodies that will be burned, sodomized, etc., in hell, while the saved in contrast will spend eternity in a glorified body serving God. Presumably God will restore and perhaps even strengthen the nervous system in both groups of people."

So according to you your God restores the dead's ability to feel pain for the specific purpose of torturing them for eternity? That sounds pretty messed up if you ask me. (And may I say that my belief is that no one deserves to be tortured for all eternity, even the most depraved, much less the poor soul who lives a good life but doesn't believe in God.)

Isis-sama, you're focusing on only half he equation. According to the Bible, everyone will be resurreced to receive the reward for their obedience to Christ:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." - 2 Corinthians 5:10

God does not restore the dead to life just to "torture" them for eternity. For those in Christ, we have a beautiful, glorified body just like that of our resurrected savior to look forward to one day. We are physical beings and God created us with bodies. It makes sense, then, that we would receive the reward or punishment for the things we do in that body as a physical, as well as spiritual reality. My understanding of the Bible is that our departed loved ones are in an intermediate state until Christ returns and they are given new bodies. According to scripture, the saved rest and are at peace while they wait for their bodies, while the unsaved are tormented by the consciousness of their guilt and shame before God.

Eternity could begin any day, Isis-sama. Where do you think you will go when God calls you into eternity? Would you like to know how to have peace about this issue?

His4Life

Filin, anyone who could go to hell knowing that Jesus died so that they could go to heaven is insane.

DA

But for shits and giggles, when we are perfected, will we remember the world before or not,Mr. His4Life?

Assuming your god DOES exist, and he DID lay out those rules?
Fuck him. FREEDOM. ABOVE. ALL!

Justanotheratheist

If mankind hadn't invented a multitude of gods and goddessess for the last several thousand years we may have more reason to believe that your current version is real.

As it is, let me trot out the classic phrase - we merely believe in one less god than you do. The evidence for this god's existence is precisely as non existent as the evidence for the existence of Zeus, Odin, and whatever deity the lost tribe of Equatorial Guinea believed in before they were unfortunate enough to be found by christians.

His4Life

DA, I see no biblical evidence that we won't. In fact, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, both characters (one of whom is in heaven and the other in hell) clearly remember the details of their life on earth.

His4Life

DA, here's the story. It seems obvious to me that both those in heaven and hell will remember the details of their lives and will retain their normal identities:


"Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.

He cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in agony in this flame."

But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us."

He said, "I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won't also come into this place of torture."

But Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them."

He said, "No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent."

He said to him, "If they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead."

— Luke 16:19–31

Filin De Blanc

"Filin, anyone who could go to hell knowing that Jesus died so that they could go to heaven is insane."

I'd sooner be insane than heartless.

His4Life

DA, here's the story. It seems obvious to me that both those in heaven and hell will remember the details of their lives and will retain their normal identities:


"Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.

He cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in agony in this flame."

But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us."

He said, "I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won't also come into this place of torture."

But Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them."

He said, "No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent."

He said to him, "If they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead."

— Luke 16:19–31

Anon-e-moose

'a reader of Randy Alcorn'. Well, along with 'God's explanation', he clearly can't think for himself.

But then, that's the Bible: it does the thinking for you.

Someone else - who was probably a born-again Christian for far longer than you, 'a reader', suddenly - by dint of his own critical thinking faculties - started thinking for himself.

He was amazed at the simplicity of fundie delusion and it's stubborn depths and pride. Like the rest of we Atheists, he concluded that the notion of only the religiously fundamentalist could be moral was insane, illogical, plain NUTS.

He - like the rest of we Atheists - has chosen to disbelieve 'God'. And like the rest of us, Jonathan Edwards doesn't rebel, nor, unlike so many other people who do likewise: Sin.

Moral: The rest of the world is becoming more and more secular. Your light is dying, fundies, and you know it. Deal with it.

woopyfrood

I think humanity's natural reflex to defy and rebel against fate or predetermined paths is what makes it so great.

His4Life

DA, here's the story. It seems obvious to me that both those in heaven and hell will remember the details of their lives and will retain their normal identities:


"Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.

He cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in agony in this flame."

But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us."

He said, "I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won't also come into this place of torture."

But Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them."

He said, "No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent."

He said to him, "If they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead."

— Luke 16:19–31

Isis-sama

@His4Life -

Yeah. I don't remember the Bible saying that Jesus got a "glorified, perfected" body upon his return to life. In fact, I recall that upon his return, he went out of the way to reassure his disciples that he was as flesh and blood as they were.

So according to you the only suffering the unsaved will go through is the guilt and shame about being wrong about what God thinks is right? What about the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation? Not to mention, if it turns out that God believes everything that you people say that he does, guilt and shame would really be the last emotions I'd be feeling. Just because an argument comes from authority - even the ultimate authority - does not make it right.

And believe me, I know where I'm likely to be going if God is the kind of being you believe him to be, and I *am* at peace with that fact. Sometimes, you have to take a stand for what you believe in, even if you have to make sacrifices for doing so. I have no desire whatsoever to compromise my morals in order to follow your god, whether or not he is real, and if he is, well, I don't believe anyone ever said what would happen after the damned are sent to Hell. But even if God ends up ruling the world with an iron fist forever, that won't change the fact that I believe the things you believe he believes are wrong. And I refuse to feel guilty or ashamed of that. Ever.

His4Life

Isis-sama, sorry, my post wasn't very clear. What I meant was that the unsaved dead are tormented by their guilty conscience while they await the resurrection. The Book of Daniel says "many will awaken in that day - some to life and some to eternal shame and humiliation." At the resurrection, the saved will enter into God's kingdom, while the unsaved will be humiliated and then cast into the lake of fire for eternity. The Bible is clear that this is a literal destination and that the suffering in the lake of fire is real, not metaphorical. However, equally real is the beauty, joy and peace of God's kingdom, to which ALL people are invited, including yourself.

BTW, Isis is the name of a pagan deity.

His4Life

1400954, the Bible says that those in hell will be in "chains of darkness" while they're burned and sodomized. Doesn't sound like freedom to me.

Anon-e-moose

@Devil's Advocate

The person in this thread - who shall remain clueless - replied to you: 'my personal belief'. Sums up the stupidity of religion, really. 'Their' personal belief, with the emphasis on 'their' and especially 'personal'. So not only their own solipsistic - and therefore subjective - viewpoint, without considering differing (and potentially belief-destroying) thinking: reality, based on facts backed up by evidence (and no, a mere 'book' of fairytales cannot be used to prove it's own claims). In other words, their own opinion. Well, as The Dude would say...



...with emphasis on your.

And someone who bases not only their 'opinions' on said book of fairytales, but their whole mindset on such (thus is the psychological lobotomy that is fundie religion; 'the Bible. It does the thinking for you', and all that jazz), then everything they say, do and above all think, is worth less than nothing. In your comment, Devil's Advocate, you said 'you lose'. Well, as demonstrated in past posts by said person who shall remain clueless, when, in their attempts to force you to their way of thinking - and 'beliefs' - and they realise they're not getting their way, they are reduced to threats ('Turn or Burn', 'Sodomising by demons for eternity' etc), then they know they've lost far more than just the argument. the term 'Argumentum ad Baculum' ('Argument by Force'). It exists for a reason. And said person in this thread who shall remain clueless, you & your 'opinions' are the reason why that term exists. And why you lose, as Devil's Advocate points out. Not just argumentally, neither; when they resort, nay, are reduced to not only threats, but insults, then...!

Religious Fundies: they simply can't handle the concept that they - and their 'beliefs' & 'faith' - are completely wrong in every conceivable way, and have been proven wrong time & again, thus their use of 'Turn or Burn' threats; psychological blackmail. Because they know they have no control over you otherwise. Control: the real agenda behind religion. Well, that's what Atheism - thinking for oneself - is all about, turning the tables on what used to be the dominant paradigm, and - via legislation (Roe vs Wade, Kitzmiller vs Dover, Proposition 8's & DOMA's overturning & repealment etc) - religious control over people is now the people having control over religion. In the increasingly Secular world, religion - and it's unjustifiable dogma - has been found wanting. And people no longer want it. Fundie Christianity had been revealed as the worse than sewer of depravity, despite it's preachers' claims of being 'Saved'; right-wing Fundamentalist Christianity: you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. And it's followers themselves do nothing to clean up their own house - and with the same zeal (& 'Guilty until proven innocent') as was used against supposed 'Communists', as per the witchhunts by Joseph McCarthy in the 1950s. Because they know that if they did, there would be no right-wing Fundamentalist Christianity left in the US.

China is, at best, irreligious. Nope, they - and their education system, and thus their R&D via universities (no Kitzmiller vs Dover required there; as with the UK, and it's legally enforceable National Curriculum - even in 'Faith schools', it's teaching the Big Bang & Evolution as fact - or else) aren't hamstrung by unjustifiable religious control. Indeed, quite the opposite. In Soviet China, God worships you.

Moral: In the 21st Century, religion no longer has the right to control people. It's people who have every right in the world to control religion. And if it requires religion - via legislation - to be forced to bow to the whims of the people, then so be it. After all, Democracy stems from the Greek words 'Demos' ('The People') and 'Kratos' ('Strength'). Thus 'Strength of the People': Democracy. The superiority of the people. The only other alternative: 'Theocracy'. Three words: Iran. Saudi Arabia.

...the notion of Pat Robertson & his ilk being forced - via the law - to like Atheists, women wanting abortions, Liberals, LGBT people et al isn't sounding so bad, eh? Secularism is becoming the dominant paradigm after all; and what's so bad about individual people thinking for themselves, and taking control over their own lives...? Ergo, fundamentalist religions - and their clergy & believers' raison d'etre: controlling people via psychological blackmail - can never justify their existence. QED.

tl;dr: Religion - and it's 'morals' - have been found wanting, and we the people no longer want it. Your 'God' doesn't exist (because you can't prove otherwise to our satisfaction), and we the people are now your God (otherwise you fundies hate democracy, making you Nazis; you are right-wingers, after all. Hitler was pro-Life too). Deal with it, fundies.

Dr.Shrinker

@ His-4-Life

You have just demonstrated that you have no idea what a parable is. They are not descriptions of literal fact. They are fictional stories told to make a point.

That being said, you have obviously missed the point of the parable you quoted. Had you actually read it, you would have noticed that nowhere does it talk about the faith of either Lazarus or the the rich man. All we know from the parable is that Lazarus was miserably poor and the the rich man was, well rich. If anything, this parable is the single greatest argument against the absurd "faith alone brings salvation" that bible thumpers like you try to pound into people.

Criminy lady, just once couldn't you demonstrate some basic competence?

Filin De Blanc

"1400954, the Bible says that those in hell will be in "chains of darkness" while they're burned and sodomized. Doesn't sound like freedom to me."

And you just love that thought, don't you, you sicko.

The madness of fundamentalism: consensual gay sex is evil, people getting anally raped for all eternity is holy.

It takes a very sick mind to believe this stuff.

SpukiKitty

@His4Life

"1400954, the Bible says that those in hell will be in "chains of darkness" while they're burned and sodomized. Doesn't sound like freedom to me."

CHAPTER & VERSE, 'TROLL4LIFE'! I read about "worms that dieth not" & "wailing & gnashing of teeth" but no anal rape. I think you're pulling stuff outta your butt!

Give me the verse that explicitly states you will be anally raped in Hell then MAYBE we'll talk.

You're probably not really a hyper-religious black woman...I'll bet you're really some pimple-faced 13 year old dork named Biff or something.

Anon-e-moose

@SpukiKitty

I say simply let aforementioned person (in this thread) who shall remain clueless continue their committing verbal seppuku; digging themselves an argumental hole far deeper than the one that could be made by the drill in Nero's ship Narada in the JJ Abrams "Star Trek" film. As I point out in this thread:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=87268&Page=3

Such is the nature of the right-wing fundie: everything they say, do, and think results in their own annihilation, logically- and credibility-wise. Because right-wing Fundamentalist Christianity itself - as well as the book of fairytales called 'the Bible' it is based on - is made of more than infinite FAIL.

Isis-sama

So the damned definitely will suffer, for real? And yet you say that God will not grant the damned the ability to feel pain just so they can suffer? Do you then think the restoration of the damned's bodies that you say will happen is a natural thing, something that God has no say over? You really think that God couldn't do something about that and prevent the damned's suffering if he really wanted to? According to you, he *is* omnipotent, after all.

As for the "invitation" to join heaven - my understanding of that is that I'm only "invited" to enter Heaven if I agree to follow God, well your particular interpretation of God, and leave the rest of the people who God doesn't think is worthy, including those who worship him but not the right version of him, to their fate of eternal suffering.

A God who decides the worth of people based on whether or not they follow him and not whether or not they are good or bad people doesn't strike me as being someone worthy of much in the way of loyalty - especially if he condemns all those who don't follow him the right way to an eternity of suffering because of that fact.

You say it's a simple choice between Heaven and Hell, but really it's more than that. It's a choice between agreeing with the decision to willingly consign the majority of the human population into an eternity of suffering and the fact that they deserve that, and Hell. Not so simple anymore, huh?

And about my screenname being that of a pagan goddess - I'm honestly surprised it took you this long to comment on it.

SpukiKitty

@Anon-e-moose

I agree. Besides, Troll4Life & their ilk provide some solid gold entertainment!

skb

Satan rules!!!