Those in favor of insurance coverage for contraceptives are not forcing anyone else to use contraceptives. They don't complain about others having their legally, doctor prescribed medicines paid for with some of the income from their premiums even though they may not use those medications. They want fairness. If medicines one needs are covered, the medicines others need should be covered too.
3/22/2012 8:21:29 AM
ok, so a churh which practises human sacrifice is fine in the USA because the constitution allows it ?
actually no. any employer must meet the federal standards that the government imposesby acts of congress.
3/22/2012 9:19:29 AM
Why the fuck is this even a topic of discussion in the United States? Employers provide health care coverage through independent insurance companies. Those insurance companies cover certain things like doctor's prescriptions. On occasion those prescriptions might include the birth control pill, but that has fuck all to do with the employer, whether they be a faceless corporation or the fucking Catholic Church.
End of the argument.
3/22/2012 9:20:22 AM
"Suppose the issue was government mandating employers provide all employees cafeteria services (everyone needs to eat). But, not only that, the government has decided that all cafeterias MUST provide pork products. Most people would have no problem with this mandate. But suppose your corporation is PETA (or a mosque) -- Why should the government tell you that YOUR cafeteria MUST provide pork? (When people who want to buy pork are FREE to buy pork anywhere else (from people who are NOT vegetarians) AND you are feeding them (which is the purpose of a cafeteria).)"
Well you can suppose that, sure. [/Spartan Laconic Wit]
...meanwhile, here on Planet Reality, workplaces with catering facilities offer provisions for those with specific dietary needs. Including government-run organisations. Even prisons cater for not only vegetarian inmates, but those who require food, i.e. meat, that is Halal or Kosher. To my knowledge, even religious beliefs are freely exercised in US prisons; with visiting, or resident padres, rabbis and Imams.
The phrase 'Use of bad analogy' . It exists for a reason. It's usually followed by 'Your argument is invalid'.
3/22/2012 9:39:11 AM
Suppose the issue was government mandating employers provide all employees cafeteria services (everyone needs to eat).
But this is a bad analogy. Not "all employees" use prescription birth control - only a particular class of employees (women) protected under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.
The constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion
Not quite. "Free exercise" doesn't include violation of civil law. Otherwise, Eric Rudolph and Mustafa al-Hawsawi could say their religion commanded them to kill people and claim First Amendment protection. Since only women use prescription birth control, singling out this one type of medication treats women differently than men for reasons that have nothing to do with their job performance.
3/22/2012 10:32:10 AM
You know, I would have a smidge more sympathy if the Catholic church only employed church workers-ie theoretically celibate priests and nuns. However, when they are the only hospital in town, or they operate charities and universities and have their grubby paws in so many industries my sympathy is very limited. More to the point, even when they sell hospitals to secular organizations, they *still* try to control what is offered.
3/22/2012 11:24:15 AM
"New polling shows a majority of Americans are so far unconvinced - they see the fight over access to contraception coverage as a women's health issue - not a matter of religious liberty. What's more, they don't think religious liberty is generally in peril."
Then I guess they're capable of seeing the obvious, unlike you.
3/22/2012 11:38:44 AM
The Vatican doesn't have to hand out Trojan condoms in it's halls, it just has to stop threatening to ex-fucking-communicate doctors who work at clinics where they do, or discuss sex education, or generally uphold their oath to treat all patients regardless of faith without denying any care that is deemed necessary.
The whole 'lobbying to remove the programs entirely because Catholics may circumvent our holy orders of their own free will' thing isn't all that passive either.
3/22/2012 12:12:21 PM
man, you people are thick!
Cafeteria: this is actually a fairly good analogy. let me fix it for you. the pork product thing is just a step too far, but unfortuantely(pour vous), it still kills the analogy. if the law said that they HAVE to leave a bowl of condoms anyone can simply take, then itd be a LITTLE better. in this analogy, contraceptive services are analagous to the cafeteria services. nowhere does it say that employees need to even SET FOOT in the cafeteria. they could always bring something from home, go to SUBWAY, or simply not eat, if they prefer. this is the same thing as contraceptive services. if the church employs someone, they have to offer the option, not force it down their throat. and as a religous institution, you get to still preach about the dangers of protected, consensual, unmarried sex, if YOU so choose. you just have to provide the option. you can even discourage people from using contraceptive, if you really wish, but you need to provide the OPTION.
3/22/2012 1:58:14 PM
New polling shows a majority of Americans are so far unconvinced
No, that's just your euphemism for "they think we're wrong".
You're saying "they're on our side, they just don't know it yet".
No, they think you're wrong. So shut the fuck up. Maybe they just have different prioritites and don't give a shit about your religious mumbo-jumbo. Ever thought of that?
3/22/2012 2:52:40 PM
This is what passes for deep thought in the top levels of the Catholic laity.
3/22/2012 3:25:53 PM
Holy shit! Bevets still exists? And is commenting on something other than Creationism? This is a red letter day!
3/22/2012 3:55:46 PM
Tell me why I should give a fuck about what a Club for Pedophiles thinks.
Also, Fuck PETA. Nothing more then a bunch of Trust Fund Collage Kids who have more sympathy for an animal then a starving kid in Africa because they see the kid as less then human.
3/22/2012 3:57:32 PM
Let me try and explain this very slowly.
No one is asking the Catholic Church, as a religious organization, to provide contraception. However, the church also runs non-religious institutions such as hospitals and universities.
I say these are non-religious because not everyone working there is Catholic; not everyone making use of the facilities is Catholic.
In these institutions, the church is a secular employer. It is the secular employer that is being mandated to provide certain benefits.
3/22/2012 5:14:45 PM
Your analogy is bad and you should feel bad for having such terrible arguments.
3/22/2012 7:05:29 PM
Umm, it is Fark and Bevets... apparently not many here know his reputation and this probably shouldn't be up here.
3/22/2012 7:06:15 PM
As long as non-Catholics are hired by the church, they have the right to contraceptives as any other person with health care in America. The Catholic church can not tell non-Catholics what they can and can not have in insurance.
3/22/2012 7:09:16 PM
You're free to go the Thoreau way: disobey the laws you disagree with, and get punished. Yes, the second part, too. Everyone is able to do the first.
3/22/2012 9:28:34 PM
You do realize that your analogy fails. See, you don't have to pony up the money for the metaphorical bacon, nor do you have to make anyone eat it. How fucking hard is that to understand?
3/23/2012 1:11:13 AM
> Suppose the issue was government mandating employers provide all employees cafeteria services (everyone needs to eat). But, not only that, the government has decided that all cafeterias MUST provide pork products.
Which is solved by not asking them to provide pork products, specifically.
Here in real world, this sort of government mandates usually require cafeterias to provide healthy meals and take special diets of the employees into account.
For example, in Finland, public schools give free meals to the students and teachers. Got allergies or something? Grab your food from the other end of the counter.
See? This stuff can easily be turned into something that pleases everybody.
Besides, demanding people to eat same things every day isn't necessarily particularly healthy, you know. Can't eat just pork all day.
3/23/2012 7:00:24 AM
Long before the US even existed? There was neitehr health care not birth control long before the US even existed!
3/23/2012 12:00:17 PM
"The Catholic Church is not stopping ANYONE from purchasing contraception."
Except for the people who can't afford it.
3/24/2012 7:52:49 AM
Oh, it's Bevets. ahahaha. Just ignore him, he's like this 24/7.
3/24/2012 11:06:37 AM
If you don't want to play by society's rules, then just mind your own business and bide your time in church.
3/29/2012 1:44:45 PM
Because fuck PETA. That's why.
7/29/2012 4:37:29 AM