Peter Popham #fundie

Peter Popham #fundie independent.co.uk

What is staggering about the secularists is their arrogance and the shortness of their memories. The materialist utopianism of the Communists and Nazis is to blame for all the worst atrocities of the past century. Dawkins may appear to make sense, but it is incredible that we should be ready to pay serious attention to a prophet whose message is the same as those whose schemes led straight to the hells of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Mao's Cultural Revolution and the Khmer Rouge.

53 comments

old comment by

Secularism isn't enforced atheism.

And while you're talking of atrocious behaviour, it wasn't secularism that expelled the Jews in the 13th century, or that near outlawed Catholicism and persecuted its followers. Secularism didn't execute witches. Or atheists for that matter. Cromwell's Puritan rule wasn't very popular with anyone who wasn't a Puritan. The UK (or England pre-UK) has had a long and illustrious history of religion-based persecution. Secularism is the best way to ensure one group never gets favour above the rest in law and reduces the government's ability to marginalise people based on faith. You fucking godbotherer idiots are being sucked into this BS and you don't even realise secularism is the best thing for everyone in a mixed society.

old comment by Papabear

"What is staggering about the secularists is their arrogance and the shortness of their memories."

What is staggering about the Fundies is their arrogance and lack of understanding of science and history.

"The materialist utopianism of the Communists and Nazis is to blame for all the worst atrocities of the past century."

Even if that was true, secularism is only obliquely related to Communism and not related to theNazis at all.

"Dawkins may appear to make sense, but it is incredible that we should be ready to pay serious attention to a prophet whose message is the same as those whose schemes led straight to the hells of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Mao's Cultural Revolution and the Khmer Rouge."

Just because your world view includes delusions of prophets, that doesn't entitle you to burden our world view with such nonsense. Dawkins is a bright guy with good ideas but he is not (nor is anyone else) a prophet.

Not sharing your religious delusions doesn't mean we are on our way to copying the Soviets or Nazis. Perhaps you religious beliefs mean you are destined to emulate the crusaders or Cortez.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"What is staggering about the secularists is their arrogance and the shortness of their memories. The materialist utopianism of the Communists and Nazis is to blame for all the worst atrocities of the past century."

What is staggering about the fundies is their ignorance and the absence of their memories:

image

Hitler was a Christian He was also a right-winger.

Stalin, Mao: Cult of Personality.

Cult of Personality = religion

We secularists by definition don't worship or even have deities to worship in the first place. And that's the difference.

"Nazis is to blame for all the worst atrocities of the past century"

Like I say, Hitler was a Christian:

'The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak ... homophobic, racist, ... capriciously malevolent bully.'

-Richard Dawkins

Thus a dictator. Ergo, God = Hitler. Q.E. and D., bitch.

"Dawkins may appear to make sense"

'Appear'? Apart from his mere existence proving he is superior to God, the mere fact he has done none of the petty, unjust, homophobic, racist & capriciously malevolent things as described in the Old Testament - as condoned, ordered, or committed personally by God - proves that he, and all we Atheists are more than infinitely superior to your so-called 'God'; and if anything he should be bowing down and worshipping us.

old comment by Bollox

@ Eppur si muove:

Re Stalin, his mother did in fact intend him for the priesthood, and his entry to the Tiflis Seminary was sponsored by his local cleric. It is true, however, that the young J V Dzugashvili never bought into this, and it is also true that the seminary was a popular alternative for those unable to afford Tiflis University.

As for the cult of personality not resembling a religion ... how not? It had holy writ, enforced dogma, ritual observances and an unreasoning worship of a father figure, to whom superhuman attributes were given. If we look at the extension of that cult as it has been practiced in North Korea, how can one say what the difference is between Juche (and its long dead Eternal President) and any other religion?

old comment by Atheissimo

'Materialist utopianism'

Of Communists? Are you sure you even know what Communism is? You know that those are the guys who thought that everybody should co-own everything right? You know, the polar opposite of materialism?

'but it is incredible that we should be ready to pay serious attention to a prophet whose message is the same as those whose schemes led straight to the hells of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Mao's Cultural Revolution and the Khmer Rouge'

Firstly, how is it that the same message can lead to such radically different outcomes? To the point that the Nazis and Communists both set up camps to exterminate the other?

'Nazi Germany'

And you know who the Nazis were, right? I mean, since you seemed to have no idea who the Communists were, you might be a bit sketchy. Those were the guys who thought they were doing God's will by exterminating the Jews who killed Jesus. Right? Those are the ones you think were secularists?

old comment by farpadokly

Comrades, let us use every opportunity we have to keep pointing out the thoroughly religious and irrational nature of these regimes, and of totalitarianism itself.
Nazi Germany in particular, cannot be called secularist or materialist. Its central myth was the nationalist myth of blood and soil.
The Khmer Rouge was political ideology which also had a nationalist and racist element. Tribalism and factionalism exacerbated by politics.
The roots of massacre and genocide are always the same: A hierarchical chain of command and a dehumanisation of the enemy. Atheism is not a factor.
Massacres also happened throughout the Christian centuries, all over Europe and in other places too. That they happened on a lesser scale is due rather to lack of development in killing technology rather than the restraining influence of religion. The command structure was there, the factionalism was there, the dehumanisation was there, and the massacres happened.
Re: Materialism: He means philosophical materialism as opposed to philosophical idealism, not materialism as in consumerism, shopping malls, etc. It is quite correct to say that Marxism, for instance, is a materialist philosophy.

old comment by Quote Improved Edition

I've been staggering about a lot lately, largely because of the secularists that made alcohol legal again. Call it arrogance, but I always laugh when I find out about the shortness of their memories. You might think it's materialist, but I was never one for utopianism. Actually my drinking pals are largely Communists and Nazis, and you can blame that on one of the worst atrocities I've ever known. In the past century alone, the fact that we hung Dawkins may appear to be incredible, but we ought to pay serious attention to my new prophet schemes. Let's set it straight. The old hells of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Mao's Cultural Revolution and the Khmer Rouge, have nothing on us.

old comment by Wehpudicabok

Communism is "materialistic" in the technical philosophical sense, meaning believing that only matter exists (in that most Communists are atheists, including the ones who have done the most damage). But of course people like Popham are incapable of distinguishing between meanings of words; equivocation is a natural part of their thought processes. The common meaning of "materalism" - putting wealth and material goods above meaningful life experiences - has nothing to do with this discussion and is only conflated so as to draw upon the reader's disgust with this idea. What is staggering here is the implied insult to the audience, that they would be persuaded by this debasement of the English language.

Peter Popham #fundie independent.co.uk

53 comments

Confused?