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#1337179
fschmidt
@Extraintrovert
What is significant isn't the current state liberal societies but rather the change. Liberalism fully took effect in the 1960s which is relatively recent by historical standards, and the decline of the West seems to have already begun. The Roman Empire suffered from similar decadence and it took them centuries to collapse. I expect Western culture to collapse much more rapidly.
Arguing cause and effect in social affairs is very difficult, but what can be shown is correlation. One correlation that is clear in history is that all rising cultures had stable marriage and required women to be virgins at marriage. Almost all declining cultures lost both of these traits, marriage was unstable and promiscuity was common. In the book "Sex and Culture" anthropologist Unwin found a similar correlation in the level of development of isolated cultures. The pattern seems to be that men become comfortable and lazy, and then give in to women's demands for various "rights" (actually privileges). These tend to ultimately be the right for women to cheat on their husbands. In our culture, women are rewarded for cheating on their husbands with alimony and child support. The Byzantine Empire was similar. "Sex and Culture" gives a concise description of how this worked in various cultures and I also checked several other cultures not covered in this book, and the pattern is very consistent.
The Tanakh is just one more example of this, as it chronicles the rise of Israel based on the sound morality of the Torah, and then the gradual decline as this morality was lost due to decadent influences of Baal worshipers. Liberalism is the modern equivalent of Baal worship, and the decline of Western civilization will undoubtedly follow the same pattern that is standard in history.
10/2/2011 11:49:55 PM
#1337186
Pioneer
How the fuck do you "misunderstand" a holocaust? Do you think the nazis were just trying to tell them something other than "we don't like you guys"? For fuck's sake.
10/3/2011 12:48:17 AM
#1337189
Bollox
Yeah, yeah, 'liberalism' is going to end Western civilisation any day now. People have been saying that kind of thing for more than 200 years, and it hasn't happened yet.
Incidentally, have you tried airing your Shoah theory in the Orthodox schul you claim to attend? Should be interesting.
10/3/2011 1:06:59 AM
#1337194
Eileen
Stop, stop! You're giving atheists a bad name! You are nothing more than an anti-semite.
10/3/2011 2:11:20 AM
#1337196
Extraintrovert
@fschmidt
I know I'm going to regret this, but I am nothing if not a masochist.
1. Liberalism, or at least social liberalism, is at its most basic a policy of gradual reform, focusing on the upholding of civil liberties as central in a free society and a belief in the doctrine of progress (contrast with conservatism; adhering to and tending to preserve the existing order of things). While there has certainly been massive resistance, in general a lot of nations, and "western civilization" in general, have been becoming more liberal for several centuries now, and in contrast to your warnings most of them have prospered. Furthermore, there has been nothing to indicate this "decline" you and so many like you constantly fear, and indeed the standard of living and scientific and technological advances have been staggering compared to the less liberal societies.
2. Just because there were these customs and laws, doesn't mean the people actually followed them or that they were at all effective in preventing unstable marriage and promiscuity. Humans are sexual beings, and unreasonable restraints on those urges has long been shown to be ineffective and/or damaging; there is a reason prostitution is the world's oldest profession and any new medium swiftly produced pornography, and even in the most restrictive of societies sexually transmitted infections were and are rife. Furthermore, there is a distinct lack of evidence to indicate even that correlation you claim between sexual freedom and societal decline, especially considering that today the majority of sexually restrictive cultures are distinctly behind those that are less restrictive. And while I haven't read this "Sex and Culture" book, from what I gleaned from an analysis the author has the same disdain for evidence that you do.
3. I'm sure a brief perusal of this website will reveal the general opinion towards the validity of religious documents in an argument.
10/3/2011 3:09:47 AM
#1337208
Mister Spak
"I am an atheist of Jewish decent with no connection to Judaism. "
" Israel had absorbed the false beliefs of the surrounding cultures"
If you know all religions are false, why are you claiming some disaster happened because one false belief was replaced by another false belief? I smell a fundie rat.
10/3/2011 4:50:10 AM
#1337213
Dan Onymous
Wait...did this prick just blame the Jews for Hitler?
10/3/2011 5:05:37 AM
#1337214
Mister Spak
@fshmidt:
"Western culture will also suffer eventually as liberalism causes its decay. "
Liberalism does not cause decay. Decay is caused by this:
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=128
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1319948
http://www.ushmm.org/propaganda/archive/film-goebbels-jews-destroy-culture/
http://thisiszionism.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-jews-are-destroying-america.html
10/3/2011 5:59:35 AM
#1337225
Anon-e-moose
"I am an atheist of Jewish decent with no connection to Judaism." tl;dr...
Still doesn't justify your misogyny, though. One word: Esther.
http://www.essortment.com/leading-women-old-testament-44019.html
Your argument is not only invalid, but is blasted out of the space-time continuum, fschit.
@fschit:
"Western culture will also suffer eventually as liberalism causes its decay. "
Yeah. Someone else thought exactly as you do, was of Jewish descent too:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/world-war-2/7961211/Hitler-had-Jewish-and-African-roots-DNA-tests-show.html
PROTIP: the Daily Telegraph is a
Conservative newspaper, just before you ask.
He took some 7.65mm Aspirin, then shortly afterwards was burned ignominiously in a pit in 1945.
...meanwhile, we're still here, still advancing the cause of Liberal,
secular Western Democracy. A friend of my uncle would like a word with you. Said uncle was one of the British troops who liberated Bergen-Belsen; the friend he made there was one of the inmates, my uncle's Liberal thinking ensured his new friend stayed alive (by sharing his rations with him, until further supplies were delivered by the Allies).
He was Jewish, with a connection to Judaism, who - post-Holocaust - became an Atheist.
I love the smell of arguments blasted out of the space-time continuum in the morning.. Smells like... victory.
10/3/2011 7:15:23 AM
#1337231
In assbackwards bizzaro world, Jews did Hitler!
Random genocide not only involving jews, but soviet death toll, gulags and all other people that Hitler had gassed, burned or put on starvation diet, including teh ghey, disabled, anyone thinking different, "enablers", gypsies.
Surely, that god of yours has slightly more accuracy when delivering punishment at near random, then delivering them from evil with equal amount of violence by bible stnatards.
If everything fails blame liberals, works every time. Even though some didn't give two shits about politics and how in the love of christ liberal thinking is a sin now? Jesus, biggest jew that ever were was liberal as all hell and those that saved others through self-sarifice and creative thinking, like sharing rations or putting themselves on the line by preventing summary execution.
10/3/2011 7:38:27 AM
#1337245
breakerslion
Stop calling yourself an atheist. You are a loony.
By what mechanism do you establish causality between sociopolitical ideology and the "punishment" attributed by clerical assholes? You have pulled your God out of your ass before inserting your head.
If you would understand the difference between the two "holocausts" (I prefer the word, "genocide" for non-symbolic clarity) you might want to try to understand the perceived differences between modern society and the Roman era. You might then discover, without losing your life in the bargain, how thin the veneer of civilization really is. The precarious nature of civil society is why, by the way, some of us are so derisive of STUPID NASTY SHITS LIKE YOU THAT WOULD TAKE US BACK TO THE STONE AGE!
10/3/2011 8:53:53 AM
#1337248
GodotIsWaiting4U
I thought you said that you were an atheist. Who the fuck was punishing you for this "corruption"? Not to mention, Babylon was not attempting systematic extermination, just subjugation.
The Jews killed in the holocaust were killed solely because they were Jews, and they weren't the only ones either. Plenty of other people who didn't fit into Hitler's master race idea were exterminated.
10/3/2011 9:06:04 AM
#1337253
fschmidt
@Extraintrovert
What matters is what a movement does, not what it says. The "civil liberties" angle of liberalism falls under "says", not "does", because liberals only care about some liberties and not others. What liberalism is really about is rejecting tradition. It is extreme arrogance for people to believe that they can figure out better values than those that have been historically proven to cause society to be successful.
There may be a slight difference in our definition of "liberal", so I should say that while the Enlightenment contained some elements of liberalism, I don't consider it fully liberal. The use of reason certainly isn't liberalism, but it can cause liberalism because liberalism is essentially the misuse of reason. The French Revolution was an early example of liberalism in our culture, particularly at the beginning before Napoleon took over.
I agree that customs and laws aren't always followed, but in those societies that are successful, meaning that are rising, female premarital chastity is always enforced. This restraint is no more unreasonable than expecting men not to rape women. Prostitution is certainly a positive thing and has been part of every successful traditional culture in history. Your comments on "Sex and Culture" are based on ignorance and are beneath comment.
I brief perusal of this website will reveal the general decay of modern culture as illustrated by closed-mindedness and a lack of civility.
10/3/2011 9:39:20 AM
#1337255
Mister Spak
@fshmidt:
"I brief perusal of this website will reveal the general decay of modern culture as illustrated by closed-mindedness and a lack of civility. "
Remove the beam from your eye so you can see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brothers eye. That's from the other part of the bible.
10/3/2011 10:17:50 AM
#1337258
Felis >:3
Up to the line "This was certainly a holocaust" he's right. Then it turns fucking stupid, fucking fast.
10/3/2011 11:03:13 AM
#1337273
Steven Mading
So he claims to be an atheist but then claims some sort of divine retribution is the reason for (what he calls) the first and second Jewish holocausts. Bullshit. You can't claim to be an atheist and also claim to believe in divine retribution.
10/3/2011 12:36:35 PM
#1337287
farpadokly
@fschmidt
The cause of the holocaust was antisemitism, racism, scapegoating, psychological projection, coupled with aggressive nationalism and a totalitarian system of obeying orders without question.
I would say that no-one who died in the holocaust deserved it, whether they were liberals or not.
There is no such thing as a static ahistorical culture that does not change over time. The Jews have always been influenced by other cultures, maybe even their monotheism isn't original. This change, is, as you say, "the justice of nature" and "a good thing", so why fear it?
It always dismays me to hear conservative Jews talking like Nazis. It dismays me more to hear a Jew essentially saying that the Jews deserved the holocaust because they were too liberal.
10/3/2011 2:31:23 PM
#1337376
SpukiKitty
A quote from fschmidt that's not focused on misogyny! QUICK! CALL RIPLEY'S BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!
That said, THIS quote is just as batzoid insane as the slop this guy usually spews out!
10/3/2011 5:40:49 PM
#1337431
Dr. Andonuts
We should build an "absolutely safe capsule" to keep guys like this in.
10/3/2011 7:31:10 PM
#1337488
lisamariefan
The way you talk about morality and corruption in reference to a "Holy Text" sure makes you not sound like an atheist (or at the very least, a former atheist).
Whether or not you're lying about that part, I still must say: FUCK YOU.
10/4/2011 1:13:30 AM
#1337580
Anon-e-moose
'CoAlpha Brotherhood'? The way you talk, more like...:
...Aryan Brotherhood, amirite? [/hyper-sarcasm]
...what, no witty comeback, fshit? No countering what I said?
If you ever could, that is.
But then, such is the mindset of the drive-by troll.
Just as gutless & bollockless streaks of weasel piss with yellow stripes a light-year wide down their backs as those who contemplate the notion of even thinking about thinking in a misogynistic way, never mind acting similarly, without the cojones to dare debate against infinitely superior intellects. Because you know only too well - but daren't admit it - that your way of 'thinking' can never be justified in any way whatsoever. Just as - speaking as someone whose country was bombed by the Luftwaffe/V-1s/V-2s - Hitler could never justify his very existence, never mind his own unjustifiable anti-democratic, anti-humanity way of thinking. As proven in WWII: that which threatens Liberal Democracy - and thus the individual rights, nay, freedoms of people - has no right to exist. That which is anti-Freedom must be obliterated, rendered completely extinct; because in opposing & trying to deny the freedom, nay, rights of other people, it forfeits it's own rights, and therefore it proves it has no right to exist. After what Hitler & co did in WWII - to say nothing of the hudreds of thousands of good people who sacrificed their lives to eliminate Hitler, his ilk & their own unjustifiable way of thinking, ergo, the only good Neo-Nazi is a dead one. Q.E. and D, bitch. What makes them think that they have the right to exist? Their continued existence is an insult to those Allied troops who died in WWII. [/Reverse Reactionary] [/rant]
But such is the coward. Thinking he can to go up against indestructible logic.
When faced with those who are more than infinitely superior to him. In every way. Your failure to try and counter thinking that - which is the dominant social paradigm - goes against your own, and thus failing in every way, proves your inferiority.
Liberal,
secular, Social Democracy - along with Gender Equality - has proven it's more than infinite superiority.
Just ask Hitler. [/Reverse Godwin]
@#1336988
(emphasis added):
"Atheist
my arse!"
...as Jim Royle (in BBC's "The Royle Family") would say. X3
@Mister Spak
"@fshmidt:
"I brief perusal of this website will reveal the general decay of modern culture as illustrated by closed-mindedness and a lack of civility. "
I guess fshit here is actually talking about
Love-Shite.com >:D
10/4/2011 8:36:17 AM
#1337756
HumMis1349
What a fucking tosser, he never fails to show up to defend his honour whenever people are saying mean things about him on the Internet.
10/5/2011 12:47:59 AM
#1337797
First sentance fail.
10/5/2011 4:29:07 AM
#1337939
Ludd
How do you call yourself an atheist yet believe in this retarded divine punishment bullshit? Right wing fucktard.
10/5/2011 10:49:47 AM
#1338060
Shadoboy
So, in other words "The jews didn't think what I think so they had all that genocide coming".
People like you should be shot. Repeatedly.
10/5/2011 8:24:05 PM
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