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Quote# 81799

Orthodox Jews who become atheists seem to follow a fairly consistent pattern:

- Trauma. They experience some very painful incident or incidents. This means that in this person’s perception, the event was traumatic. Some people are much more sensitive than others are to the same experience.

- Medication. They use sex to console themselves and to distract themselves from their pain. This may be anything from flirting to masturbation to actual intercourse. Pornography is usually important; for girls, this means romance novels.

- Rationalization. In order not to feel guilty about their sexual misconduct, they deny the validity of the Torah and/or the existence of God.

This clarifies why explaining proofs of Torah to an ex-Orthodox atheist is never effective. He may claim that he is convinced of atheism because of philosophical reasons; however this is never the case. He needs the atheistic philosophy merely to remove the guilt which he would otherwise have to face.

Jacob Stein, Jewish Philosopher 50 Comments [6/11/2011 6:48:24 AM]
Fundie Index: 80
Submitted By: Doctor Whom
WTF?! || meh
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Allegory for Jesus

Yeah, I somehow doubt that "medication" and "rationalization" are that common. Ever thought that the fact that innocuous things like masturbation and consensual sex being antithetical to your religion is what makes it look ridiculous from an intellectual point of view, and not just from the point of view of someone who feels guilty for running afoul of such arbitrary standards? No, probably not. Because just like Christians fundies, you need to believe that your religion has such a wonderful moral code, that atheists are immoral, and do not believe in your religion because they want to remain so. All three of which are false, mostly due to the fact that Judaism/Christianity/Islam have ridiculously poor moral standards. It is overly strict in restricting things that people should't really care about, and it is absurdly lacking in restricting things that decent modern people would find atrocious.

6/11/2011 7:27:31 AM

Zeus Almighty

Mmmmmm. A deliciously different flavor of fundieism.

6/11/2011 7:32:36 AM



Since supposedly you don't have problem with sex(and sex slavery is allowed in your book), that's not the problem. Try not to fall in the freudian slippery slope.

6/11/2011 7:37:42 AM

Yownanymous

Explaining the proofs of science to a fundie moron is even less effective. My irony meter just broke.

6/11/2011 7:45:01 AM

Mister Spak

You left one cause out. He read the Torah and realized it's a load of shit. Reading more Torah at him just provides fuel for that fire.

6/11/2011 7:54:35 AM

Swede

I'm not an ex-Jew and I wasn't that orthodox before I became an atheist, but nothing whatsoever on that list fits with my "pattern".

It took me years and years to realize I am an atheist, no trauma there.
I use sex for pleasure and relaxation. Most people flirt, masturbate and have intercourse.
Hey! Girls use pornography too, ya know. We are not delicate flowers who faint at the sight of an erect penis.

To me it seems the orthodox people are the ones dealing with guilt. We atheist merely live and let live, and treat others as we want to be treated. Where's the reason for guilt in that?

6/11/2011 8:06:20 AM

Frummers are idiots

The fail is strong with this one, but let's just focus on pornography=romance novels. WTF?

And aren't bacon sandwiches the leading cause of leaving Orthodox Judaism?

6/11/2011 8:42:15 AM

Brendan Rizzo

Ah, these are exactly the same rationalizations fundie Christians use to explain the existence of atheists. It's almost as if they're copying from each other. I still don't know how they claim to know what atheists believe better than atheists themselves.

6/11/2011 9:10:55 AM

Mudak

Okay. I concede that I left conservative Judaism and not orthodox, but my pattern was: think about what I'd been taught, then apply logic and common sense to other teachings, leaving the religion, then realizing all the other ones were just as bad, if not worse.

6/11/2011 9:15:45 AM

The_L

Goodness, is everything about sex to you, Jacob?

6/11/2011 9:32:07 AM

Papabear

Well, sex IS my favorite medication.

6/11/2011 9:38:53 AM



@Frummers are idiots
Have you -read- one of those?I mean, no surprise it sounds porntastic to Mr.Ultra Orthodox here.

6/11/2011 10:33:58 AM

Ren

I love how he thinks girls, even young ones, don't look at porn. The world must look awfuly nice from that ivory tower.

6/11/2011 10:53:18 AM

NoE

If this thesis is true, wouldn't the holocaust have cause all the Jews to become atheists?

6/11/2011 10:56:35 AM

Skatepunk

A Jewish fundie. Didn't see that coming.

6/11/2011 11:44:38 AM

Frummers are idiots

@ #1298376: Can't be any worse than the Song of Solomon, surely?

6/11/2011 11:44:54 AM

werewolf

As a connoisseur, I must say that pornography is not similar nor equivalent to romance novels. I'm shocked that you would even consider to make the comparison, Jacob.

6/11/2011 12:22:33 PM

Mike

Fuck you, Stein. Just fuck you.

6/11/2011 12:32:10 PM

Old Viking

Please send more information on sex as consolation.

6/11/2011 12:42:34 PM

John_in_Oz

Proofs of Torah? Bring them on!

6/11/2011 12:46:14 PM

Panz

Yeah, how dare people not face guilt for doing nothing wrong, how dare they!

6/11/2011 12:50:34 PM

TakoTaco

Am I getting this right?

We have a Jew.
This Jew, for any arbitrary reason, becomes an atheist.
1. For some reason, s/he receives a trauma.
2. S/he uses sex to treat the emotional wounds.
3. Our Jew feels guilty because the text that s/he does no longer believe in says sex is evil.
And, to protect him/herself from the guilt caused by the text s/he does not believe in already, s/he chooses to become an atheist so as to not believe in the text s/he already doesn't believe in?

Atheism -------> Trauma
· --------------------··>, |
^ ,· ------------------· v |
| '· <------------------ ·' v
Rationalization <---Medication

I think my brain just broke...

6/11/2011 12:53:54 PM

aaa

Ah, the classic "i fail to understand philosophy".

6/11/2011 12:55:15 PM

John

Ah, the old "atheists really believe in God, but they deny Him so they can pursue their ungodly ways" argument.

6/11/2011 3:53:57 PM

Osiris

How an hardcore religious person becomes an atheist.

Go to college.
Get interested in some religious studies classes.
Realize that other religions are no different from yours.
Realize that all religions are bullshit.
Call yourself "agnostic" because you still fear social implications of being an atheist.
Become an atheist when you get over the social fears.

And you know what? Orthodox religious people understand this, that's why they're so against higher education that isn't some kind of religiously based diploma mill.

6/11/2011 4:05:34 PM
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