Jérôme ^

Taz: you're right saying that the Byzantine empire recovered (when the Lascaris family and Nicene empire retook Constantinople from the Latins) but it never again got to the level of the Comnene empire. For one thing, it definitely lost in 1204 the Egean islands (to Venice) including Crete, one half of modern Greece (the duchy of Athens, though it managed to retake Morea = the Peloponnesus and even hold to it until several years *after* the fall of Constantinople) (to the French and Italians), Epirus (= modern-day Albania) (to the Slavs), and even parts of Anatolia (to the Turks) while they were busy fighting on the western side.

Moreover, the brutality of the 1204 sack left the city largely depopulated and poor. It was only maintained as a useful trading post by the Genoese (and to a smaller degree, by the Venitians).

12/14/2009 2:56:14 PM

SleepNeed

Constantinople fell in 1453 to the invading Turks, the first Crusades happened in 1095. The last true Crusades in the Middle East ended in 1272.

Around 182 years before Constantinople fell.

Besides,for example the atrocity of the massacre in Jerusalem in 1099 is atrocious. Some sources list all or most of the Muslim population was dead (including unarmed men, women, and children) and Ibn al-Qalanisi states that the Jewish defenders had burned a Jewish synagogue killing all it's defenders inside.

12/14/2009 2:59:50 PM

Nithing

Trying to paint either side as the aggressor or the defender is pointless and shows a complete lack of understanding of the history of the region.

Both Islam and Christianity were alien invaders to the entire disputed region, from Spain to Palestine to the Balkans; Christianity spread by Imperial decree and slaughter of heathens and Islam almost entirely by open warfare and harsh taxes on unbelievers.

They see-sawed back and forwards attacking each other for over a thousand years. Trying to claim the moral high ground out of that mess for either side is stupid beyond belief.

12/14/2009 3:11:08 PM

moose

Hey Junior. That crusader thing didnt quite go as well as you had planned. In your attempts to try to downplay the atrocities of xians, care to take a gander about another medieval practice? Perhaps....witches and the inquisitions? Yep, xians were just all around good guys that got bad press......

12/14/2009 4:25:59 PM

@ campbunny

"Anyway, this post is technically correct. Muslim military conquest, starting from Arabia - not Palestine, they really did conquer that - was a very real threat to Christendom up until the seventeenth century. There really was a letter from the Byzantine emperor pleading succour against invaders. The Turks really did obliterate the Eastern Empire."
Actually the Turks didn't technically bring down the Byzantines. The Ottomans did. As a general comment, the "Muslims" are not a group that can described as "broad-sweeping." The Muslims were as united as the Christians were: not very. The Christians would not have identified as a continent. So the Byzantines would not have seen the Catholics as "their fellow Europeans." Plus the Byzantines had lands in Asia too so they weren't as European as you think. The Byzantines didn't want an invasion of the lands the Muslims conquered. They would have seen the lands as still theirs. The Byzantines hated the first crusade. See the History Channel's The Crescent & The Cross for more information

12/14/2009 5:41:32 PM

Sandwich Board

"During the First Crusade, Jerusalem was knee-high in non-Christian blood when the Crusaders conquered it. "

Now, (without looking it up - I just want to see if I've still got this bit straight...)

My memory tells me that the First Crusade never even reached Jerusalem, having run out of steam en route. (Which would not be surprising, since it was less an army and more an angry lynch mob with no idea of how big the world was.)

Ah, whatever. Crusade, Jihad: the only difference is the shape of the swords.

TMBG FTW

12/15/2009 3:41:19 AM

Wait, Jerusalem was Christian at the time?. I didn't know.

12/18/2009 1:06:16 PM

Darwin's Lil' Girl

I bet someone said the first sentence to RHJunior and he's just repeating it now.

12/23/2009 9:20:57 PM

Concerned

Does RHJunior even know that his topic has been placed here? Because I don't see any rebuttals from him...

7/14/2010 1:10:21 PM