Blarghonius

I was excited for a bit when I thought that this was a new illogical fundie argument to rend asunder, but it turns out to be a lumpy, still wet coat of paint on the clock maker argument. Poor showing.

8/12/2011 11:17:42 PM

He's basically restating the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

He conceptualized it on his own and then pulled a theorem out of his ass to quantify it. (The actual theorem is S = Q/T where S is the change in entropy, Q is the transfer of heat, and T is the equilibrium temperature of the system.)

The law only applies to closed systems, and life isn't one. It regularly interacts with its environment. The overall entropy of the universe does increase, in this case into the environment, but the complexity of life continues.

Here's another example: Plant a seed in the ground. Water it. Give it sunlight. It will grow into a plant. A tiny seed becomes a flower, thus, by your logic, defying the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

8/13/2011 12:03:36 AM

rw23

I don't think I've ever seen such arse-about-face logic. At least the level of mathematical ignorance is fairly standard.

8/13/2011 3:05:06 AM

nishaun

not sure if this is double post
@David B. I think I see the problem is it the "computer program" notation? But even then you should just read the explanation below it. That is how you write "divided" in computer math.
No not really David. Where does the "+energy" come from in your argument? You can't use physical growth of a seed as proof of evolution. Plants don't grow in outerspace,out of spaceships(I have to specify just in case you aren't smart, I know there is a space station). Too many variables, why do seeds grow... it's not evolution. How many energy sources do seeds tap into? Nope solar energy has to be converted, just like food energy, it takes energy to process energy. Solar energy could be used to prove, solar powered calculators will turn into computers... cause solar energy is magic, lol. Actually on the "time" thing in my personal theories time is an energy source... sorry I said that in passing... I did not specify before. The Theory of Relativity makes perfect sense if you factor in that time may be an energy source. You were probably thinking watches and clocks or something when I said time. Time has to be absorbed if you are moving too fast because of inertia, etc then you don't absorb time energy so you change position relative to the universe but you don't change relative to yourself... I guess I am all kinds of smart...


atheists-r-bad on deviantart

11/13/2011 6:50:19 AM

nishaun

I always find it super funny when half the atheists tell me how stupid I am and there is absolutely no sense in what I say. Then the other half are all understanding even though they disagree, lol. Which is it?

The funny thing is this original post to this website taught me how smart I really was... I had just started debating I am an amateur so I didn't have any experience with Thermodynamics. When you guys told me that I was transliterating Thermodynamics, I was like wow, I'm good, can't believe the scientists already knew that they had been disproven.

Just remember sunlight isn't magic...

I have grown leaps and bounds in my fundiness, I used to think that atheists were smart now I know that atheism is a religion based on not believing in God. That's just dumb.

11/13/2011 6:52:23 AM

Philbert McAdamia

>> (God's energy/dirt or clay)=human brain <<

Must be why I have a dirty mind. I am the way god made me. Heh heh.

nishaun, you are one fart smeller I mean smart feller. Yeah, that's the ticket.

11/13/2011 10:07:53 AM

Anon-e-moose

Maths =/= Biology. Otherwise, scientists would have invented organic computers - like the Nexus in the last stage of id Software's game "Quake IV" - before now. And the human brain is vastly superior to even current quantum computers, in terms of operational complexity & programming. Does the human brain rely on binary code? [/smartarse]

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"
1 Corinthians 1:27"

(emphasis added):

'Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.'

-Seneca the Younger

@Philbert McAdamia

[/Speverend Rooner, the queer old dean]



X3

11/13/2011 11:46:13 AM

Swede

I know very little about math, but surely this is crap.
How is a mirror a pattern?
A throw is energy, I get that much.
A wall is a pattern too?
And so is shards, apparently...
So, is this a chaos theory? Mix energy with pattern and end up with broken pieces?

It's clearly foolishness, that's for sure.

11/13/2011 12:24:04 PM

nishaun

@Anon-e-moose

I understand what you just said about math not being biology.

Now please clarify why math would not be equal to biology?

I think this is a fair question... I've heard that artificial response b4.

11/13/2011 2:21:05 PM

nishaun

To regard something...

as if you have ever seen a fossil.

It all comes back to belief in the end... even now without loosing a step you ask me to believe your friend seneca.

(Careful with me I'm smart... I shouldn't have to say this all the time... you being intellectuals every thing you say should be vast, like me for example. But atheists always sound shallow to me.)

11/13/2011 2:24:56 PM

Anon-e-moose

"nishaun

"@Anon-e-moose

I understand what you just said about math not being biology.

Now please clarify why math would not be equal to biology?"

Okay. Use a calculator to create a human being then.

It's okay, I can wait...!

And Biology =/= Mathematics, in the same way that Biology =/= Cosmology, as so many Creationists who are in denial about Kitzmiller vs. Dover, dare to claim to the contrary.

11/13/2011 2:45:59 PM

nishaun

@Anon-e-moose
I always thought that math was the foundation stone of everything.

I can't really agree that it doesn't apply... so then...

I am a creationist because I think evolution breaks mathematical laws, while you disagee because you feel those laws don't govern here?

Fair enough? How exactly does this make me stupid? As I keep hearing.

11/13/2011 10:04:47 PM

Nishaun, stop trolling already.

11/13/2011 10:26:35 PM

Anon-e-moose

@#1348786

"Nishaun, stop trolling already."

I think I've got something that'll make nishaun, a.k.a. Dennis 'ma(short)bus' Markarzi mk. II here think twice:

@nishaun

"I am a creationist because I think evolution breaks mathematical laws, while you disagee because you feel those laws don't govern here?

Fair enough? How exactly does this make me stupid? As I keep hearing."

Oh boy, you fundies just love to walk right into your own FAIL, don't you...:

@nishaun

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"
1 Corinthians 1:27"

"God's brain or thoughts-(God's energy/dirt or clay)=human brain"

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=843&Page=1#1348685

@Sephiroth (emph-ass-is added):

"As for heaven and hell, can you prove there is heaven and hell? I can ... through Quantum Physics."

Therefore, calculating via this formula: nishaun = Sephiroth. Thus:

'But God hath chosen the moronic fundies to confuse the wise; and God hath chosen the weak minds of the world to prove Atheists are mighty.' - FSTDT 1:9¾

"I'm smart... I shouldn't have to say this all the time... you being intellectuals every thing you say should be vast, like me for example. But atheists always sound shallow to me"

How right you are [/OVER 9000-levels of sarcasm]. As opposed to the following Nobel Prize Winners:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=7210&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=78255&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=525&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=30385&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=2275&Page=1 (I refer nishaun to J. James' comment)

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=31476&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=83088&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=78757&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=30781&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=36952&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=5949&Page=1

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=83181&Page=1

(Oh, and the following are absolute doozies; prime cut, unadulterated, Grade-A examples of the sort of thing nishaun here is promoting):

Dozy: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=53885&Page=1

Ignorances of Suza: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=79181&Page=1

Ken Porkies: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=77004&Page=1

THUNDERPANTS: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=70379&Page=1

StuporSport: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=36055&Page=1

AV1611(needs a)VET: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=83040&Page=1 http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=77240&Page=1 http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=49406&Page=1

hamashiachgoatse: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=73098&Page=1

Casshiterides: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=77098&Page=1

Derpan Hellhesdumb: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=52402&Page=1 http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=52402&Page=1 http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=83360&Page=1 http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=52890&Page=1 http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=35093&Page=1

You being fundies, everything you say should be science-destroying, like your 'formula' for example, nishaun.

However, we on FSTDT shouldn't have to say this all the time...:

God has a brain of clay. And his followers talk bum mud.

So let's see you submit your 'formula' in a paper to an established scientific journal, for peer-review nishaun. If it can stand up to rigorous scrutiny, that is. Go ahead:



You don't want to prove we 'shallow' Atheists right. Do you?

You will prove us right if you don't...! So...

I'll be expecting your 'formula' to be published in the next issue of "Scientific American" nishaun. No pressure...! >:D

11/14/2011 7:56:44 AM

David B.

@nishaun: "Where does the "+energy" come from in your argument?"

The Sun, as mentioned in the argument.

"You can't use physical growth of a seed as proof of evolution."

No, but it does however disprove any and all objections to evolution based on the second law of thermodynamics and variations thereof. Information, complexity (Kolmogorov and Shannon) or energy density all increase on the Earth's surface every day through the processes of growth. The reason this is not a problem for the 2LOT is because this is not the whole story, since the system (Earth) is not isolated.

"Nope solar energy has to be converted, just like food energy, it takes energy to process energy."

It can, for example the energy expended on forging a steam engine to utilise the chemical energy of coal for motion, but it does not have to, for example the breaking of chemical bonds from incident UV light.

"The Theory of Relativity makes perfect sense if you factor in that time may be an energy source."

Not really, but it's a popular idea in science fiction, so I can see the appeal if you are a Time Lord or a Weeping Angel.

The energy-mass equivalence principle has been rigorously tested and robustly confirmed but could not be true if energy and time were also equivalent, i.e. if energy could become time or time become energy.

Also, from Noether's theorem, all processes that are "time-reversible", i.e. demonstrate equally valid physical processes whether treated as moving forwards or backwards in time, demonstrate conservation of energy. Motion in time, in any direction, cannot involve energy exchange with the "timestream" without violating COE.

11/14/2011 8:56:52 AM

Anon-e-moose

@Rapax Pringer

Cirno has an IQ of just (9)...:



...yet even she knows enough about maths, to be able to point at mishaun and say 'Look at that baka'.

[/Touhou]

--EDIT--

@nishaun

"Over the years I have been perfecting my "time is an energy source" not a dimension formula."

Then submit those to the next issue of "Scientific American" as well, just to prove we Atheists wrong. Because you know what'll happen if you - who are so sure you're right about what you say - don't. Like I say, no pressure...! >:D

That Nobel Prize awaits...! [/OVER 9000-levels of sarcasm] Oh, and speaking of which...:

"but that is another story"



[/Doug Piranha-levels of sarcasm]

The editors/writers of "Scientific American" need a good laugh too. So get submitting to that magazine, chop-chop! You do realise that if you don't accept this challenge, to have your 'formulae' made subject to stringent peer review in this way, then you'll have admitted that you and everything you claim are...:



And that therefore we at FSTDT:

'But God hath chosen the moronic fundies to confuse the wise; and God hath chosen the weak minds of the world to prove Atheists are mighty.' - FSTDT 1:9¾

As well as Seneca the Younger are right all along, eh?!

And we don't want that now, do we?! [/hyper-sarcasm]

11/14/2011 10:02:12 AM

nishaun

@Anon-e-moose

I have a few that might but that is another story. Over the years I have been perfecting my "time is an energy source" not a dimension formula.

11/14/2011 10:26:45 AM

Philbert McAdamia

>> "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; <<

Hmmm, must mean fundies.

11/14/2011 10:28:18 AM

nishaun

@David B.
Yes but that is the problem with the non-observability of evolution.
A good methaphor would be a scientist observes a bird flying then he studies and explains.
There is no observance in evolution. There is evidence fossilized and otherwise but that
only leads to unprovable explanations. One would have to look at plantlife in depth to use
it to prove complexity increase. At this moment in time there is no observance we don't know
what is actually happening when plants reproduce and grow. Science is just not there yet. But you are using this
to prove complexity increase. I simply argue that Adam's DNA was just a little more complex than ours.
The fossil record shows animals used to be bigger... this fits into creationism. And implies that there
is no complexity increase.

I was talking about this "p + e = d (pattern + energy = different pattern), " Where does the plus energy
come from in your hypothetical formula? "equal and opposite reaction" prevents your formula. Instead of throwing imagine punching a wall to change its pattern structure, easy? Nope, how long before your fingers break. Back to throwing... pitchers in baseball don't always have long careers because the plus energy comes from his arm. (remember energy has to be minused from something for it to be +energy.)

LOl, I was really mad when I heard that "time energy" stuff on Doctor Who. But no, on that show time is a dimension and an energy and timey whimey stuff.

In my theory it is energy like the will of God sent out into the universe.

In my theory motion is governed by time energy. So the destruction of any mass is affected.

Nothing is time reversible if time is an energy source. You have to look at how energy works, either the energy is complex or the object is complex. Compare solar cells to combustion engines, one uses a simple energy stream one uses a complex compound. I haven't decided in my theories whether time energy is complex or the mass that absorbs it.

11/14/2011 10:55:49 AM

Anon-e-moose

@Philbert McAdamia

>> "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; <<

"Hmmm, must mean fundies."

Or:

"I was really mad when I heard that "time energy" stuff on Doctor Who. But no, on that show time is a dimension and an energy and timey whimey stuff."

nishaun here is actually a Scientologist, trying to troll we SPs at FSTDT; 'MEST', and all that jazz. PROTIP: On that 'Bridge to Total Freedom', be careful, that OT-VIII's a real doozy!

Oh, and as for 'timey whimey stuff', with his screename 'nishaun'...:



...he sounds as near as dammit to the angel character in Koge-Donbo's manga/anime "Pita Ten", Misha; 'hisy-wisy -su!'

Thus he's also a weeaboo troll. And behind his keyboard, he's tittering like Misha does too: 'Tee-hee-hee!'

11/14/2011 12:33:07 PM

David B.

@nishaun: "Yes but that is the problem with the non-observability of evolution."

Evolution has been observed. Not just inferred, observed.

"we don't know what is actually happening when plants reproduce and grow. Science is just not there yet."

There are several introductory texts on plant biology that can explain it to you.

"But you are using this to prove complexity increase. I simply argue that Adam's DNA was just a little more complex than ours."

Adam is a myth, and whether you use Shannon complexity or Kolmorogov complexity, the process by which one seed becomes many thousands represents an increase.

"The fossil record shows animals used to be bigger... this fits into creationism. And implies that there is no complexity increase."

Size is not a direct measure of complexity, so the implication is not warranted. And despite the obvious selection bias towards large fossils in palaeontology, there have been plenty of fossils of small animals recovered as well. Even the giant dinosaurs of the Jurassic and Cretaceous descend from smaller precursors in the Triassic.

"I was talking about this "p + e = d (pattern + energy = different pattern), " Where does the plus energy come from in your hypothetical formula?"

Elsewhere. In the original example the energy came from the throw. Since neither the Earth nor in fact the Universe is an isolated system at equilibrium, there is plenty of usable energy available to smash the odd mirror.

""equal and opposite reaction" prevents your formula."

That is Newton's 3rd law of motion, and refers to the forces of action and reaction only.

"Instead of throwing imagine punching a wall to change its pattern structure, easy?"

Yes, since my imagined wall was made of loosely packed straw. In fact I'm fairly sure I could huff and puff and blow the wall down.

11/14/2011 3:13:52 PM

Anon-e-moose

So I guess, by him being conspicuous by his absence, nishaun is either (check one):

[ ] Too busy sending his 'formulae' to "Scientific American" for inclusion in their next issue, as per my challenge to him. I shall therefore await such to be published with great antici...

...


...


...pation! [/"Rocky Horror Picture Show"] Because he knows he - and therefore his claims - will be proven wrong, if when the next issue of "SA" hits the newspaper shop shelves, and said 'formulae' aren't there...!. >:D

[ ] He daren't take up my challenge to have such published in a scientific journal such as "SA", despite his claims that he's right. He doesn't want not just himself - but his precious Bible, re.:

'But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;'
1 Corinthians 1:27

to be proven...:



By being pointed and laughed at by 40 FSTDT commenters. nishaun & his 'formulae' would be pointed and laughed at by 40 FSTDT commenters. That's as many as four tens, and that would be terrible. [/meme] X3

Choose wisely. Especially you, nishaun. Like I say, I'll be expecting those 'formulae' of yours published in next month's "Scientific American" magazine; because if they aren't...! >:D



While everyone was looking, Ranpha Franboise took forty cats. She took forty cats. That's as many as four tens, and that's a lot of pussy. =^_^= X3

11/15/2011 10:48:05 AM

David B.

@Anon, I think you mean the journal Science (www.sciencemag.org), not Scientific American. Scientific American is a science magazine aimed at the educated puplic, it's not peer-reviewed and AFAIK they don't accept submissions.

11/16/2011 8:28:42 AM

Anon-e-moose

@David B

Fair point, and appreciate you correcting me.

...still, nishaun could always submit his 'formulae' in a paper to "Science" then.

I'll be expecting such in the next issue then. You don't want to be proving that we Atheists were right all along, and your 'formulae' - to say nothing of your precious 'Bible' - to be proven wrong; we don't want that now. Do we eh, nishaun...?! >:D

11/16/2011 9:20:39 AM

nishaun

@Anon-e-moose

scientology, lol...

Nishaun is SDA

11/16/2011 6:58:53 PM