Booley

...materialistic evolution cannot explain many human characteristics...

Oh let me give it a try...

free will

You mean the ability to make decisions based on available data? In other words.. Choose one's course of action?

Well obviously a creature that could adapt mentally as well as physically to a changing environment would have an advantage over those that couldn't.

Same with self awareness. The better an understanding a creature had of it's surroundings and how it fit into those surroundings, the better it could adapt.

sense of beauty

Well physical beauty is based on symmetry. And symmetry is a good outward indicator of genetic health.

So naturally when choosing a mate, one would want to be attracted to the guy with the best genetic health.

musical abilities;
language abilities;
sense of morality;

Since we have evolved as social creatures, these all serve to cement the social bonds and make out social interactions more efficient. A species that can communicate complex ideas to each other can better cooperate.
meanwhile a shared morality can keep a group together.

aversion of bad smells;

Besides the number of smell receptors, another key difference between the noses of say dogs and humans is that humans have pain receptors linked to those smell receptors. Our ancestors were apparently scavengers but with a low tolerance for rotting meat. So we developed noses to determine which food was safe or unsafe to eat.

]aversion of dirtiness;
.....
preference for cooked food;

These are completely cultural affectations. People in the middle ages never bathed, believing it would give them the plague. And as some one else pointed out..sushi.
Of course, even here we can see evolution at work since the principles of physical evolution work on cultures as well. If a culture's mores help it survive (by say, avoiding disease by cooking food and staying clean) then that culture will more likely thrive.

All these are found lacking in animals;

No. Other animals don't have these things as highly developed as we do. But orangtangs have been shown to have a limited self awareness. Dolphins and wolves have a language of sorts. Birds sing and are attracted to things they consider beautiful. and higher primates line baboons and chimps have a social structure wherein actions can be considered acceptable or not.. in other words.. moral.

Gee, that wasn't very hard at all.

11/16/2007 11:47:13 AM

ArmandT

Everybody else here seems to have explained away everything well enough. I only have these to add.

musical abilities
Birds sing. Besides, it is found that many musicians have an overdeveloped part of the brain (depends on what they started and what instrument they play).

aversion of bad smells
Usually when something smells bad, that means you eat it, you die. Natural selection explains this well, because if you eat something poisonous, well, you die.

preference for cooked food
I just wanna add something. Cooked food takes a lot less effort to chew. Humans, as humans are, always prefer the easy way out.

fear of seeing blood
I donate blood regularly, so I'm not exactly averse to it.

materialistic evolution
No such thing.

11/16/2007 11:59:58 AM

David D.G.

Everybody else has done a fine job of dissecting that first portion, so I'll just address this:

"Many supernatural incidents are effective in disproving materialistic evolution, including apparitions of God and saints, miracles (like miraculous spring water of Lourdes , incorruptible bodies of saints), etc."

Riiiight. Actually, it's the other way around: Materialistic science is effective in disproving many (in fact, virtually all) allegedly supernatural incidents, including apparitions of God and saints, miracles (like miraculous spring water of Lourdes , incorruptible bodies of saints), etc.

Science has proved the Shroud of Turn to be a mediaeval forgery, for example. "Incorruptible" bodies are merely well preserved (or was Lenin a saint, perhaps?), and a saint's blood sealed insided a glass globe remains liquid because there's nowhere for the moisture to go. NOBODY has ever been cured miraculously at Lourdes (or anywhere else). Apparitions of God and saints are invariably either hallucinations or simple pareiadola ... pariedola ... paraiedola ... uh, the phenomenon of seeing faces or other images in random patterns. (I can't seem to find a source for the word right now, and just because the phenomenon is simple doesn't mean that spelling it is!)

And, for the record, even on those few occasions where science cannot explain what may have happened, it does not follow that the supernatural is an acceptable default explanation. It's far more likely that we are simply working with too little information for a proper reality-based explanation of the situation.


~David D.G.

11/16/2007 12:13:06 PM

Of course, because Evolution doesn't try to explain those things. It tries to explain why we are what we are now, not how we should be. And for the rest of "supernatural" incidents, it's something you have to believe, there isn't evidence of that. They're not facts, it's something that something says it happened.

11/16/2007 12:24:42 PM

Papabear

Bullpucky, however, I do admit that the survival of blithering idiots is an evolutionary mystery.

11/16/2007 12:41:12 PM

toothache

Swing. And. A. Miss.

11/16/2007 12:45:07 PM

Mike

EVOLUTION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

11/16/2007 12:49:02 PM

BunyipGirl

Musical abilities and appreciation could be in the realm of liking flowers, flowers mean food. Bird song signifies that there are edible plants, that no predators are about, that spring has arrived and the weather is good.

11/16/2007 1:58:21 PM

Lunalelle

There is so much FAIL here that I just can't go through it point by point.

EPIC FAIL.

11/16/2007 2:18:18 PM

Old Viking

The list of human characteristics is impressive, but it has fork-all to do with evolution. The incorruptible bodies of saints were embalmed. We're witholding judgment on Lourdes until a few artificial limbs show up. And the idiom is aversion to, not aversion of.

11/16/2007 3:28:55 PM

NonProphet

Here's something that'll make fundies claw their frontal lobes out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071116/ap_on_fe_st/odd_hero_dog;_ylt=AvzGLBXRHcuC6zG0o6aFqWahOrgF

What was that about free will and morality being exclusive to humans?

11/16/2007 3:32:57 PM

anti-nonsense

The last 3 are rather obvious actually.

We've evolved to perceive certain smells as "bad", often because they indicate food that is rotten and thus dangerous to eat, or something that is poisonous and thus shouldn't be eaten. Bad tastes work the same way.

Partially learned and partially because cooked food is less likely to cause diseases.

Seeing your own blood means you are injured in some way, thus it's a BAD THING.

All the rest is simply the result of our well-devolved brains. We've discovered the areas in human brains that control music-making and consciousness and a number of other things. And higher animals display at least some of those traits, and in fact almost all animals have an aversion to some smells although they may have a different definition of "bad" then we do depending on their usual diet.

11/16/2007 3:37:00 PM

Nami

“free will;”

Animals are capable of making choices.

“self-awareness;”

…Has been observed in apes, dolphins, and elephants, and for all you know, could exist in other animals too or even most complex ones. I think most complex animals are aware of their own selves on SOME level, at least.

“sense of dignity;”

You've never had a cat.

“sense of beauty;”

You've never seen peacocks trying to attract mates.

“musical abilities;”

Birds sing to attract mates. So do crickets, etc.

“language abilities;”

Many animals use body-language and simpler forms of verbal language. What do you suppose barking is?

“sense of morality;”

All group animals have social hierarchies and rules as to what is and isn’t acceptable, thus, morals. Just because we’re the only species to write them down doesn’t mean we’re the only ones to have them.

“aversion of dirtiness;”

Funny, my cat cleans himself a lot. Flies do too.

“aversion of bad smells;”

Skunks would disagree with you. They didn't evolve the ability to spray stinky liquid just to defend themselves against humans.

“preference for cooked food;”

We learned how to do that so we could eat a wider range of foods. I don’t see where God comes into the picture.

“fear of seeing blood.”

A lot of people don’t fear blood, and some animals are actually turned off by gore. Horses can become extremely traumatized if they see something bloody happen to another horse. Plus, don’t you think an aversion to death and seeing blood would be a good survival trait?

Fail indeed.

11/16/2007 5:22:19 PM

tracer

Um ...

What we consider "beautiful" are those attributes that tend to be most beneficial to our survival and reproductive success.

A "beautiful" woman is one who is the most likely to be fertile and to be able to survive childbearing.

A "beautiful" forest is one that has all the signposts of abundant edibles.

In other words, the REASON we consider X beautiful and Y ugly is specifically because ancient proto-humans who considered X to be ugly avoided X and died out, whereas those who considered X to be beautiful went after X and thrived, and passed the genetically-based instinct to be attracted to X along to their offspring. Not only CAN evolution explain the sense of beauty, the sense of beauty is completely inexplicable WITHOUT evolution!

11/16/2007 5:32:37 PM

BlueLithium

"musical abilities;"

Sexual selection.

"language abilities;"

Chomskyan Linguistics?

"sense of morality;"

Kin Selection, for one.

"aversion of dirtiness;"

This one's obvious. Avoidance of disease(eg in a rotten piece of meat.)

"aversion of bad smells;"

See above.

"fear of seeing blood."

Blood is assocaited with death. Death of yourself or a reltive is bad for one's genes. Also, drawing blood might make one a target for prey that can smell it.

11/16/2007 5:32:55 PM

I don't think simple evolution would provide us with...

sense of dignity;
sense of beauty;
musical abilities;
sense of morality;

and I'm not sure about

free will;
self-awareness;

but for

language abilities;
people who can communicate are a lot more likely to survive

aversion of dirtiness;
unclean living leads to disease. disease leads to death. people who avoid disease get to procreate longer
aversion of bad smells;

preference for cooked food;
same as above. food poisoning can kill people, particularly without medical aid.

fear of seeing blood.
again, hanging around blood isn't healthy.

11/16/2007 6:44:20 PM

edit's down.

aversion to bad smells
things that smell bad tend to be things that would be really unhealthy to breathe. that's why they smell bad.

11/16/2007 6:46:01 PM

Lithp

The reason we cook our food is quite simple: It tastes better.

See, after a while, our livers became incapable of handling all the shit that was in uncooked food, since we weren't eating it. And we weren't eating it because it tasted better, & we have opposable thumbs & intelligent with which to manipulate fire.

Granted, this isn't verified, but it's a scientific explanation. Take THAT, Mr. FACTS!

11/16/2007 11:02:24 PM

waigoren

@ John

#362839

You always have good posts. Thanks.

11/17/2007 2:08:59 AM

Athar

Too many quotes to laugh at so I'll be brief.
"preference for cooked food"
Eskimos Disagree

11/17/2007 3:26:00 AM

Materialistic Evolution

Free Will
I dunno about that. My cat seems to think it's ok to bring his most recent kills into the bathroom.

Self-Awareness
My cat is pretty damn aware that he's a cat.

Sense of Dignity
My cat...is a cat. He likes to think he won't undignify himself by obeying those lowly humans unless food is present. Although he is friends with a dog...

Musical Abilities
Clearly you haven't heard 21st century music. You wouldn't be able to differentiate it from a cat on a piano keyboard. Besides that, as others have noted, bird song is pretty.

Language Abilities
You do know there are various ways to say "Miaow," right? At a guess, my cat understands them all. The fact that we can't tell one miaow from another is not indicative of their lack of language abilities.

Sense of Morality
Cats have morals. Just because they're a different kind of fucked-up to the rest of ours (or the average fundie's) doesn't mean they don't exist.

Aversion of dirtiness
What do you think cats are really doing when they lick their backs? Or, for that matter, their young?

Aversion of Bad Smells
If a cat doesn't like a thing, it's mostly because they don't like the smell.

Preference for cooked food
I'd write something about a cat here, but they don't really discriminate between raw and cooked food (they do, however, possess a sense of taste). But this one's really borne of a need to survive--most food can't be eaten raw.

Fear of seeing blood
That varies from being to being. Some people actually like blood.

11/18/2007 8:46:33 AM

apYrs

lots of examples of evolutionary factors

11/18/2007 10:53:54 AM

cyborgtroy

I don't even freaking believe in free will, and all of those are in fact found in animals.

1/11/2008 5:50:27 AM

melange

free will;
Um, the whole point is that evolution is automated, not necessarily planned or mechanized, so how is free will at odds with it?
self-awareness;
Um, it would be difficult to hunt, gather food, function without self-awareness, even if dimly.
sense of dignity;
Group mechanics, cooperation, so on.
sense of beauty;
Symmetrical faces are a sign of adequate nutrition, and perceived as beautiful.
musical abilities;
Hello, weaver bird analogies. Ability to create elaborate and detailed product is a sign of intelligence, critical thinking, strength, secure food supply, and so on.
language abilities; sense of morality;
Again, pack coordination. Also, exceedingly simplistic "language" has been recorded in some primates, which aided them in avoiding predators and gathering food together. Morality has the same issue as dignity: group solidarity and unity through curteous relations (in theory).
aversion of dirtiness; aversion of bad smells; preference for cooked food; fear of seeing blood.
You honestly don't think these are useful traits? Epic Fail indeed.

All these are found lacking in animals;
Animals are unconscious automatons? They never create art (ever seen the paintings captive elephants make as well as the weaver birds mating houses I mentioned before)? They don't mate off of plumage? They don't communicate at all (there's more than just some primates with "language" I mean dolphins have some amount of communicative skills, and wolves with extremely sensitive behavioral communication, etc.)? I suppose morality might be lacking, but I think that's true of a lot of humans too. Aversion to "dirtiness" is rather complex, and depends on species, as does the definition of a "bad" smell, the use of cooked food, and the meaning of the sight of blood.

Many supernatural incidents are effective in disproving materialistic evolution, including apparitions of God and saints, miracles (like miraculous spring water of Lourdes , incorruptible bodies of saints), etc.
They are not scientific facts but are FACTS.

Oh please...

1/11/2008 7:00:14 AM

Whisper

free will;
If you beat your dog enough, it might chose to run away.
self-awareness;
In higher animals, yes. Give a dolphin a mirror, it'll realize it's looking at itself and examine it's reflection
sense of dignity;
Animals actually do have this, believe it or not.
sense of beauty;
Really depends what you mean.
musical abilities;
Man, the mockingbirds are making fun of you.
language abilities;
The dolphins again. I suggest you get one of their records.
sense of morality;
Most animals won't eat their own dead, even if could use the meat.
aversion of dirtiness;
Animals wash themselves. Duh.
aversion of bad smells;
Smells indicating danger or poison will be avoided by animals as much as by people
preference for cooked food;
The human inability to tear flesh with our teeth and our digestive system's poor reaction to raw meat is hardly evolution.
fear of seeing blood.
No all humans have this anyway.

1/21/2008 1:37:05 AM