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Quote# 31267

Dear IFG1P315,

Apart from abiogenesis, we can also attack materialistic evolution in other ways :

(1) materialistic evolution cannot explain many human characteristics (especially spiritual ones) , for example :

free will;
self-awareness;
sense of dignity;
sense of beauty;
musical abilities;
language abilities;
sense of morality;
aversion of dirtiness;
aversion of bad smells;
preference for cooked food;
fear of seeing blood.

All these are found lacking in animals;

(2) Many supernatural incidents are effective in disproving materialistic evolution, including apparitions of God and saints, miracles (like miraculous spring water of Lourdes , incorruptible bodies of saints), etc.
They are not scientific facts but are FACTS.

tomc, Foru.ms 54 Comments [11/16/2007 4:57:36 AM]
Fundie Index: 4

WTF?! || meh

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#337064

AWP

Epic fail.

11/16/2007 5:09:56 AM

#337073

Rufus

(1) Most of his list can be explained by us having better brains than animals, although the last three are quite entertaining...

aversion of bad smells
certainly isn't unique to humans, especially as our sense of smell is terrible in comparison to dogs.

preference for cooked food
Sushi anyone?

fear of seeing blood
nope, can't say it's ever bothered me.

(2) So it's official, there are two types of facts, scientific facts that can be independantly verified and FACTS, which presumably can't (and in tomc's mind are far more important)?

11/16/2007 5:24:03 AM

#337076

Joules

Can't be arsed addressing the others, but as far as these go and straight off the top of my head:

"musical abilities"

Never heard birds singing to attract mates or claim territory? It's a nice sound. I've even tried to imitate it myself (not very successfully, but still...)

"aversion of dirtiness"

Obviously never had kids!

"aversion of bad smells"

If something smells bad, it usually means it's bad for you in some way - toxic or poisonous, not a good idea to touch or eat it. Useful survival mechanism, no?

"preference for cooked food"

Speak for yourself - I like my steak straight off the cow and waved at a candleflame... Seriously, a lot of foodstuff is inedible (or causes stomach problems) when not cooked. We've learned this through trial and error down the millennia: it's part of 'survival of the fittest' (cos if you're too stupid to learn from those who've learned these things, you die off...)

"fear of seeing blood"

Obviously not female!

Honestly, do these morons ever actually follow ideas through?

11/16/2007 5:36:26 AM

#337078

anevilmeme

This line of fundie bullshit has been popular the last year or so. Blah blah blah, evolution can't explain emotions, blah, blah blah goddidit, blah blah blah. In the end of course its the typical fundie strawman.

11/16/2007 5:43:30 AM

#337079

szena

Most of the things on the list are learned, not innate.

You could just as easily say that dogs are the highest life form on earth because no other creature can hear very high pitches or knows enough to roll in something to disguise its smell.

Animals that can learn some kind of language display self-awareness and obviously language abilities, cats have quite a sense of dignity, moral behavior has been observed in primates and in dogs, and if no other animals stayed away from bad smells there would be no reason for a skunk to stink.

Fail.

11/16/2007 5:44:54 AM

#337088

James

At least he seems to think everyone has a sense of morality and not just christians.

11/16/2007 5:56:10 AM

#337098

Mister Spak

The spring water of Lourds is a Catholic phenomenon, therefore can't be an apparition of god because Catholics are not christians.

"self-awareness;"

Apes elephants and dolphins show this. You fail.

"aversion of dirtiness;"
My cat cleans itself frequently. Even flies clean themselves. You fail.

"aversion of bad smells;"
My cat has an aversion to the smell of banannas. You fail.

11/16/2007 6:07:11 AM

#337111

Heather

My cat definitely has an aversion to dirtiness and is very self-aware.

11/16/2007 6:25:35 AM

#337117

inmate22841

Lourdes: Millions of pilgrims walk past the shrine every year in a huge mile long queue.
Total number of confirmed miracles? None. Not one. Not a single one. Lots of souveniers though.

Icorruptible Bodies of Saints: Bollocks. The bodies of saints ( and popes ) decompose like everyone else.

Could this be an American who has that quaint US-fundie attitude that the 'Old World' of Europe and the Middle East is packed full of genuine miracles and genuine relics all glowing with Godly power?
We all live in haunted castles too, and everyone has a title and the Loch Ness monster is real just like on TV.

11/16/2007 6:29:14 AM

#337118

Nutz

almost everything on your list applies to a huge assortment of animals. You could have composed a list of strictly human characteristics, however, I suppose it would be very short and you wouldn't be eligible for your Epic Fail medal.

11/16/2007 6:31:43 AM

#337122

Goosey

See, unlike you, tomc, most reasonable thinking people don't deny things they can't explain.

Imagine someone won the Nobel prize for discovering a cure for cancer. Would you say he's evidently stupid because he can't explain quantum mechanics?

Evolution can't explain those things because it doesn't have to. They don't contradict evolution, and in fact have very little to do with evolution.

11/16/2007 6:45:27 AM

#337124

Prager

tomc's crash and burn is worse than anything I've seen on a racetrack. There's nothing on his list of "evolution-destroying points" that has anything to do with evolution.

11/16/2007 6:58:54 AM

#337126

Bork

Seriously, my cat has demonstrated most if not all of those characteristics. Musical maybe not but it´s definitely following its own twisted morality.

Also shouting or writing in all caps does not make something truer, it´s generally an indication of the opposite.

11/16/2007 7:11:19 AM

#337145

Caustic Gnostic

I noticed "intelligence" is not on your list.

It must have evolved independently.

11/16/2007 7:50:37 AM

#337147

NonProphet

free will;
That would be why dolphins have sex for fun, then.

self-awareness;
As has been addressed before, this is present in other species.

sense of dignity;
This is a learned trait, not instinctual or 'spiritual.' Ever hear of nudists?

sense of beauty;
Explain why many animals choose mates based on most attractive feathers/coats/scales, then.

musical abilities;
Do birds not exist in your world?

language abilities;
Absolutely wrong. Dolphins may not have the physical capability to speak human languages, but they have their own. And apes learn sign language easily.

sense of morality;
You mean like the monkeys that starve themselves rather than let their fellow monkeys be shocked?

aversion of dirtiness;
Cats. Many insects. Sea creatures that seek out plecostamus fish and similar creatures for cleaning.

aversion of bad smells;
Most animals with a sense of smell have an aversion to bad smells. Moreso than humans, in fact. (Note: What you think is "bad" is not the same to every human, much less every species.)

preference for cooked food;
Partially a learned trait, and partially due to the fact that our systems are so delicate that raw food (excepting a few things like sushi and steak tartar) causes serious problems.

fear of seeing blood.
Not universal for all humans, and not exclusive to humans. Most prey animals flee at the sight or scent of blood, especially that of their own species.

None of this has to do with evolution, really. Claiming evolution is false because it doesn't explain absolutely everything is a fallacy.
Please board the failbus now.

11/16/2007 7:52:12 AM

#337178

Brain_In_A_Jar

"preference for cooked food"

Speak for yourself - I like my steak straight off the cow and waved at a candleflame... Seriously, a lot of foodstuff is inedible (or causes stomach problems) when not cooked. We've learned this through trial and error down the millennia: it's part of 'survival of the fittest' (cos if you're too stupid to learn from those who've learned these things, you die off...)

I reckon that's more a case of social evolution than biological evolution anyway; I'm pretty sure it's a trait that is reproduced and carried by group mentality and other social forces, not genetics. Cultures which encourage good hygiene survive, ones that don't die out.

Either way, of course, it still supports the evolutionary model.

11/16/2007 8:38:04 AM

#337185

Salvador

You fail, please try again. Thank you.

11/16/2007 8:48:00 AM

#337202

Ranger Joe

I served in Afganistan and Iraq as a Ranger. I'm also an atheist (more of us than you think)

1) Define bad smells. Most people I know hate the smell of cordite. I love it.

2) I am not afraid of blood. Shed a shit load of it..it's not a big deal

4) I love raw steak

5) Dignity and Awareness...Oh Kettle...Oh Kettle...If you had a shred of fucking awareness at all you'd realize your zombie christ isn't going to come save you and your going to wind up in the same place as everyone else except you wasted the one life you get.

Rangers Lead the Way...All the Way

5) Being dirty is satisfying

3)I have more morals than most christian leaders..ie: I pay taxes, I never struck a woman, I dont rape murder kill and steal.

11/16/2007 9:19:15 AM

#337213

John

What says these things aren't evolved, other than the creationist's usual "argument from personal incredulity"?

They are not scientific facts but are FACTS

No they're not. Just because people say a burned piece of toast looks like the Virgin Mary (who the hell knows what Mary looked like, anyway?) doesn't mean it's actually an apparition of the Virgin Mary.

(Personally, I've always thought the toast looked like Mary Pickford ...)

11/16/2007 9:43:54 AM

#337224

Mudflappus

Incorruptable? You mean adipocere laden? Sorry but there's no "MIRACLE" at work here. Fundies love to throw words like "infallible" around but don't realize that in an argument with a non believer the word carries no weight.

11/16/2007 10:01:53 AM

#337242

Øyvind

Epic hilarity. Cats don't have a sense of dignity now?

11/16/2007 10:41:42 AM

#337245

cyborgtroy

Then let me explain them:

Freewill - No you can't has it

Self-awareness - A natural result of our ridiculous brain capacity

Dignity - Doing anything embarrassing lowers your chances of reproduction, so evolution is proud to present "dignity"

Beauty - Quickly judging a potential mate for reproductive capability, or a car for speediness.

Musical abilities - No, I can't explain that one

Language - Well, it's certainly easier to team hunt and tattle on teamkillers when you can talk. You idiot.

Morality - Those who teamkill are hard-pressed to get good mates, so we've trained ourselves against it.

Dirtiness - Remember the plague? That was allegedly caused by poor hygiene? They're right - Being clean is really favorable.

Bad smells - We hate bad smells because back in the day, smells warned us when we approaching dogshit.

Cooked Food - People who get food poisoning and die are bad at reproduction. So you see, that is evolution.

Fear of blood - What are you talking about???

11/16/2007 10:49:20 AM

#337246

cyborgtroy

And also, those attributes are ALL found in other animals, especially mammals. Stupid.

11/16/2007 10:50:06 AM

#337250

Fed Up

Where to start...

free will;

If 'animals' don't have free will, then who controls them? Are they like UAVs?

self-awareness;

I think that most complex species are aware of their own existence on one level or another.

sense of dignity;

Hard to say here, but you've obviously never had a cat.

sense of beauty;

Who knows. Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder- for example, you probably find people 'speaking tongues' beautiful, while I think they look like nutcases.

musical abilities;

What the fuck has music got to do with evolution? It's a symptom of an advanced intellect.

language abilities;

Animals communicate, you moron. Just because our speech is more complex doesn't prove the Bibble.

sense of morality;

Define morality.

aversion of dirtiness;

If you think that other species don't notice dirt then you really need to get out more. The spiders in mommy's basement aren't the only other creatures alive, yknow :p .

aversion of bad smells;

What I said above

preference for cooked food;

Humans don't have a "preference for cooked food", we cook some food to kill microorganisms. True, a lot of things are much nicer cooked, but that's a result, not a cause.

Besides, I don't think the average dog knows how to operate a grill.

fear of seeing blood.

Maybe you scream like a stereotypical little girl every time you see blood, but most people don't. I guess that with all that cooked food, you don't really know where meat comes from.

As for the miraculous spring water of Lourdes, isn't it strange that the vast majority of people who go there don't get cured? I guess Jesus must be really testing their faith.

11/16/2007 11:19:00 AM

#337255

flipper

This is a fucking joke right? Surely this person cannot possibly be this stupid! Every single one of those with the exception of preference for cooked food(and maybe the one about morality, how in the hell can you check that?) are found in animals, domesticated and in the wild. Has this dumbass never owned a pet, been to a farm or zoo, watched a National Geographic documentary, or attended a zoology class in his entire life? If YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about a subject tomc, shut up! Don't pull something ridiculous and contradictory to the facts out your ass, it makes you both ignorant and a liar instead of just ignorant.PS Facts are provable otherwise they are not facts, so your second point is just as stupid as your first!

11/16/2007 11:39:39 AM

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