TimeToTurn #fundie

TimeToTurn #fundie fstdt.com

Obama is a capitalist, and Obama does bad things in the name of capitalism. Doing bad things in the name of crushing capitalism is good.

Which is basically true. Aside from it's impossible to do bad things in the name of crushing capitalism because that would make them good things.

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old comment by Azereaux

Triple T, please be careful of extremism. Becoming a Tautological Templar* is a danger, not a goal.

Regardless of your opinions on Capitalism (don't get me started on the shades of market economies, or we'll be here all day), or regardless your cause in general, it is possible to do bad things for a good cause and still have those things be bad. Curing a disease by summarily executing anyone that has it, for example, would be a bad thing. Trying to promote happiness and a fresh start by wiping out all of the unhappy or educated people... well, that was tried in Cambodia, and was one of the things you got both sides of the Cold War to agree to condemn.

The ends DO NOT justify the means. While the outcome must always be considered, so too should the morals and ethics of the means to that outcome.

*My cause is good, and anything done for my cause is good because my cause is good.

old comment by Jamaican Castle

@1995038:

Even if he'd made all that money for himself honestly (and not through let's say embezzlement, scams, and taking money from his folks) the measure of a businessman isn't how much money he personally has, it's the health of the businesses he's led. In that regard, Trump is an exceptionally poor choice.

All your trumpeting of his personal wealth tells us (and him) is that you'll consider him a successful president if he leaves office richer than he came in, regardless of what happens to the rest of the country in the meantime. As part of that rest of the country, you'd think you'd care more about that part of the story, but obviously not.

old comment by

@1995038:

Worth billions my foot. The man said himself his net worth changes with how he feels. HE HAS NO IDEA HOW FREAKING MONEY WORKS! Trump's worth a wood nickel and he'll try to sell you one for a dime.

Look, if a man runs his business into the ground and then wins the lottery with enough money to cover his debts that doesn't make his business successful that makes him lucky. When his own employees have to push him out of the decision making process to keep a business profitable that doesn't make him a leader that makes him a liability they can't figure out how to dump. Every time he's taken a direct interest and direct control of a project the Trump Organization has lost money and gets stuck playing catch up in the aftermath when Donnie gets bored and leaves the people with a lick of sense to do their jobs.

Would you call Chairman Mao a financial genius because the country he runs is profitable? How about Obama? He at least has the distinction of reducing the national debt - contrary to wolf-crying about spending allocations - instead of multiplying it like his predecessor did and his successor is gearing up to do. Get a life, get a clue, or get out. Your choice.

old comment by TimeToTurn

@shy

Aww...

@Azereaux

Then why isn't what the Allies did in WWII ever condemned? Millions of German, Japanese, Italian, and other soldiers were killed. That constitutes murder. But yet murder in this case was good, or more precisely, necessary.

Therefore, there are times that murder is good. There are times that kidnapping is good--dragging criminals from their homes and holding them in prison against their will is effectively kidnapping, but it's good when the good guys are doing it.

From that point, I use logical deduction to emphasise that starting a war in the name of crushing capitalism is not a moral evil. If you and all in charge have weighed the options and possibilities, then the course of action you take in making a better world cannot be wrong so long as it actually leads to a better world.

@#1995092

It's my interpretation. The first line is my interpretation, the second is my personal thought on it. At least I think that's what the original quote was trying to say, in case it wasn't then I claim it as my own.

@#1995225

Wrong. My example above regarding kidnapping/prison is sound. If we extend it to warfare, then we also get murder. I know capital punishment is sadly unpopular around here, but that would be another example, as would the distinction between corporal punishment and assault.

And of course the big one--if I take your money, then I'm committing theft, but when the government takes your money, it's considered taxation and no one but anarchists consider it immoral (because anarchists are idiots of the most idealistic source). The government can also legally take your car, your house, and anything else you might own. We treat all of this as acceptable, since it's all needed to run a functional society.

So yes, it's okay if we do it as long as "we" are okay to begin with.

old comment by Jamaican Castle

@TimeToTurn: It is true that the morality of some actions can be relative. But that's because of the circumstances, not ideologies, involved. If I (or my great-grandfather, more like) run into a random Nazi soldier and shoot him, it's excused, perhaps even exalted, by what he would have done instead - shooting me, or my buddies, or some random Soviet peasants, or being complicit in war crimes. Not because I don't like Nazis, but because the Nazis were doing these things (and worse).

And then there's the question of proportionality. Shooting someone who's shooting back at you might be praiseworthy. Shooting someone who's threatening you with a knife is probably justified. I think many people would say that shooting someone who's stealing your car is unjustified (although many would disagree), but most of those people wouldn't have any problem with you punching the thief in the face. Larger "bad things" require a larger and more proximate justification. Some things are so bad as to be pathological cases: it might be possible to craft a world in which they'd be justified, but in reality it's virtually impossible for it to be.

Nuance is important in this case. It's not as simple as "me smash bad capitalists, grr".

old comment by Pharaoh Bastethotep

>TimeToTurn:

"Right, so you're nothing short of reactive rather than proactive. Not a good way to get things done."
How did you read that into Jamaican Castle's post? Oh wait, you are insane.

"You are ultimately conservative in the end, as is most everyone on this site."
While it is certainly far from perfect, all in all, I like the world I live in. It is cerrtainly the best Humanity has ever achieved. I would very much prefer to have it changing slowly for the better by reform and progress than destroying everything, including so many things I hold dear, and very probably losing my life in the progress because some maniac asserts that he would build a better world from the ashes, one that is vaguely described and, from the things he has revealed, would not be one I would want to live in, thank you very much.

"Wow, you wouldn't even shoot a thief stealing your car? What a joke."
You value a car higher than a human life?!? You are a psychopathic monster,

old comment by Jamaican Castle

@ TimeToTurn: Did I say reactive? I simply prefer to have a little proof and keep things in proportion. If you see a guy dressed in black standing in a bank vault with a bunch of lockpicks, by all means, do him for theft even though he hasn't stolen anything yet. But don't just arrest random people who come into the bank because they might someday decide to rob it.

And I didn't say whether or not I would shoot someone stealing my car. (I don't actually own a car at the moment, which rather limits my options.) I just said it was a matter on which people might have differing opinions, and where the levels of force they would be comfortable with might range up and down the scale. While you were critiquing my implied answer to the question you missed the point, which is that there is a question in the first place.

@ Pharaoh Bastethotep: You put it far better than I could. Destroying everything in hopes of making it better isn't progress, it's just a knee-jerk reaction - one most of us discard somewhere between having it and executing it, if not between having it and getting out of the chair.

TimeToTurn #fundie fstdt.com

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