When I suggested to Samantha Stephenson (presumably an atheist) that she couldn’t prove that Charles Darwin existed, she replied:
“Never tell me I can't do something. Prove you're real. Documented evidence proves Darwin's existence, historians are still unsure if there was a guy who even matched the whole Jesus description. Yet they're good on Darwin. And to be fair, where's the lock of Jesus hair?” Samantha Stephenson
In answering her, I would say that if someone provided what was said to be Charles Darwin's birth certificate, how would we prove it was his? Any “documented evidence” has to eventually be "believed." That's what it comes to. Do we believe it or don't we?
Old pictures of Charles? How do we know that was really him in the picture? How do we know books were really written by him? We simply “trust” that they were. His historical existence for us rests on “faith” -- do you believe or don’t you? I believe he did—but I know that there’s no absolute proof.
The faith that I have in Jesus has nothing to do with His existence. The trust I have in Him is for my eternal salvation.
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"The faith that I have in Jesus has nothing to do with His existence."
Sorry, my brain just cannot handle this sentence.
"The faith that I have in Jesus has nothing to do with His existence."
The faith I have in Allah has nothing to do with his existence. He is just real, and Jesus is a lie.
So basically there's no way of knowing anything, and therefore we should just decide to believe or not believe? Fine!
I'll start worshipping the ancient Egyptian gods. I mean, if that's how arbitrary it all is.
Ray Comfort: "The faith that I have in Jesus has nothing to do with His existence. The trust I have in Him is for my eternal salvation."
Atheist: "You think Jesus can save you even if he doesn't exist? How'd that work??"
RC (gets worried, then quickly pulls out a banana): "Behold, the atheist's nightmare!!!"
I hate this kind of attitude. It is the absolute worst thing to deal with. I always wonder how people who think like this can possibly live, seeing as reality all around them might well not exist by their logic. How do they know *anything* is real?
They are functionally dead people, and like other forms of walking dead, perhaps the best way to deal with them would be a bullet to the head. (That's a bitter joke, before you get your pants in a twist.)
Okay this is extremely stupid, even for Ray.
Unless, of course Ray is implying he's secretly a solipsist, considering according to him you can't be sure anything is even remotely true or real aside from yourself... Or in his case, himself and gawd.
The difference between fact and faith is evidence, and yes you are right in that a)there is a sliding scale of evidence between the two, and b)the absolute at the fact end is more theoretical than real.
However, once you get past this your faith is still chalk to what we refer to as fact's cheese - one is a conclusion based on the evidence, the other is a conclusion despite the lack of it.
Darwin is buried in Westminster Abbey, isn't he? It can't be much left now, though, but perhaps there is enough to compare with known living relatives, if there are any.
This sounds equally mature as "I know you are, but what am I?". Is Bananaman regressing back to childhood?
I don't think Ray honestly believes this, he's just trying to trip up "Samantha" into admitting that atheism is completely illogical, and that Christianity is the only thing that makes sense.
What I hate is his arrogance and special pleading. He talks that people like Charles Darwin could not have been real, because documents and such of him could be falsified. And yet, he believes Jesus Christ is real because of something even more useless then falsified documents/evidence: wishful thinking. I.e. "Jesus exists, otherwise I won't go to Heaven if he didn't!"
But here is the thing Ray, we don't even have that type of evidence for Jesus. Yes all evidence has to be believed but there is strong evidence and weak evidence. The evidence for Jesus is much weaker for the evidence for Darwin. Yes all "evidence" relies on faith but not all evidence requires the same level of faith.
"The faith that I have in Jesus has nothing to do with His existence."
And there lies the problem Ray. You need him to exist and nothing can prove other wise. That is why there is no debating with you.
Ok, Ray, follow along:
Darwin existed because-
To that end, nothing is real, everything must be taken on faith. *Everything* from what someone else says they had for breakfast to the date you were actually born.
If you can see how silly that kind of philosophy on life is right away, congrats, you're not a complete fuckwit like Comfort over here. A man so astoundingly dumb he mistook hundreds of years of human intervention for a 'godly created' piece of fruit.
How do I know YOU'RE real, Ray? All I have are these walls of texts from you, which could very well be falsified. Perhaps you're not a real man, but a team of trained monkeys with keyboards? I suppose there ARE pictures of you, but that could just be another man that everyone says is you. I mean, I've never met you in person to confirm that the photographs aren't fake. Even if I did meet you in person, how do I know you're not a paid actor or a horribly malfunctioning T-800? I think I'll choose to believe that you simply don't exist at all to save myself some grief.
Ramses II existed. All those temples, stelae, carvings, papyrii etc. He was worshipped as a god.
image
Having a DNA-analysable body does his existence case no harm, neither. Can you prove he wasn't a deity?
All those structures & artifacts proven to have been owned by him. Not so much as one scrap of similar archaeological evidence to prove that your J-boy existed. If he ever [I]did[/I], that is.
Ramses II above.
image
The Church of England can prove that Charles Darwin exists. They have him buried & memorialised at their central place of worship, Westminster Abbey. So why would a Christian organisation such as the C-of-E - whose whole foundation is based on 'Faith' that your unproven 'God' exists,- therefore waste precious space, resources and emotional investment on someone who ultimately proves so much of what you claim wrong , Ray Cumfart?
Can you prove that Westminster Abbey doesn't exist, Banana Boy? Millions of foreign tourists - including those from the US & New Zealand - would like a word with you.
Ray is a known presuppositionalist, though being Ray, he can't even do that method of apologetics right. What he's trying to argue, more or less, is hard solipsism. He presents that as some sort of huge problem, which then puts his belief in magic on the same level as a person who accepts that a guy existed based on the numerous contemporary writers who documented his life and official records of his life. The next step is to forcefully assert that the two positions are not actually equal, since if you pretend the Bible is true as interpreted by the apologist, you can convince yourself that solipsism isn't a problem at all because you'll feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel the truth of the Bible.
RC: The trust I have in Him Bananas is for my eternal salvation.
(Later) RC: I was just kidding.
The existence of Darwin is, entirely apart from the evidence, an easier claim to prove.
Darwin was an ordinary man, there are ordinary men now.
Ordinary men are necessary for procreation therefore the presence of ordinary men now implies the existence of ordinary men in the past.
Jesus was a WIZARD, there are no WIZARDS now.
WIZARDS are not necessary to posit for the existence of anything in the present, therefore nothing in the present implies the existence of WIZARDS in the past.
So even from the get go proving Darwin's existence has a lower burden of proof.
Okay so lets see, words that Ray Comfort doesn't understand:
Proof
"The faith that I have in Jesus has nothing to do with His existence." Unintentional truth, FTW.
"The faith that I have in Jesus has nothing to do with His existence."
Therefore you admit that Harry Potter exists. Purely on the basis that a fantasy tale says so.
Someone who - from humble beginnings - saves the world from a great evil, along with his allies, dies and comes back to live again. A classic story that has inspired millions, and has introduced jaded kids to the joys of reading, with it's strong message of morality & hope; one that sells by the shipload, and has had films based on such.
And then there's the Bible: about someone completely fictional. NEXT !
I can't WTF. He believes in the spirit of Jesus, a little bit like Paul, but does not try to convince us JC was a real man in the real world.
I cannot meh either. It's Ray Comfort, after all, and he's as stupid as usual.
Apologetics
1) We have no evidence
Also
Just watched people up against Sye Ten, In particular Matt Dilhuntys debate with him.
In his weak Apologetics Sye goes to that "you can't prove anything, even your own beliefs, you can't even prove you believe in them because you may not exist in this world, you may be a brain in a vat". I've always hated that shit, the modern take is that we 'can't prove we're not in the Matrix'. Yes we can, the Matrix is a concept only.
It's amazing because only religions accept the wildest philosophies because they need the full nutter approach. Realists either dismiss the 'this could all be an illusion' or put the concept in the useless files with all the other inapplicable ideologies. These 'not really here' concepts are only good for fiction.
Setting aside for a moment that it doesn’t affect the validity of the ToE one bit if Darwin existed or not, let’s play a game here, Ray. We both start with the basic premise that there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus and Darwin. And then we both start gathering said evidence, I’ll do it for Charles Darwin, you do it for Jesus Christ.
I’ll accept written accounts from contemporaries or from the man himself. Let’s see who can gather more evidence.
Mathius_dragoon
Okay so lets see, words that Ray Comfort doesn't understand:
I think they've actually compiled a book on that.
It's called a dictionary.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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