A good illustration of this principle was recounted in a Chattanooga area church where a mother was required to choose between her church (where she had attended for 60 years) and her lesbian daughter. The daughter had successfully advocated to make government benefits available to same sex “spouses.” Her family supported her homosexual advocacy. Church officials met with the mother and two other relatives and told them “They could repent for their sins and ask forgiveness in front of the congregation. Or leave the church.” Well finally, a church that practices church discipline. Of course, for doing so, they are called “unloving,” “haters,” and “bigots.” That’s easier than dealing with the issue.
The lesbian daughter whined, “Literally, they’re exiling members for unconditionally loving their children – and even extended family members.” Her dad told CNN, “Loving her daughter and supporting her family was not a sin.” Dad declared, “There was nothing to repent about.” He added. “They certainly couldn’t judge her on that because that was between her and her God, and it was not their place to judge her for that.”
I am not without sympathy for the family; however, Scripture must rule, not sentimentalism. Principled people do what is right even when it hurts. The family was not being judged for “unconditionally loving” but for defending perversion. Moreover, it was the church’s place or right, even obligation, to make a judgment. The family refused to repent and left the church.
48 comments
Praise! Indeed, this is the way a Christian church is to deal with perverts and those that defend and support them.
2 Cor 6:14
In the name of the Lord,
Jerry
"Of course, for doing so, they are called “unloving,” “haters,” and “bigots.” That’s easier than dealing with the issue."
That's why you also act like an unloving hateful bigot. Dealing with the issue would mean you would have to adjust your values.
Seems the word "fundie" is losing its meaning. This person isn't saying this family will roast in hell or trying to impose their beliefs by law. They are in fact saying that if you don't like the beliefs and practices of a church and/or refuse to follow them, you should leave the church. Sounds reasonable to me. Why anyone would want to be a member of a church so at odds with them is beyond me anyway.
You do realize that this is putting a black eye on Christianity, don't you? It's this raging intolerance which is emptying the pews every week. I mean, if they wanted to force the daughter to leave, I might be able to understand that (since they're intolerant Christians), but kicking the mother out for what her daughter did is awfully childish. Telling family members of LGBT's that they're not welcome is going to cause further harm to Christianity.
@Doubting Thomas
What's fundy about saying that if you want to be a member of an organization you have to live according to that organizations beliefs? Note that according to the post the mother was kicked out because she supported her daughter's advocacy for same-sex marriage, that is for her political views . Not because her daugter happened to be gay. Again, why would a rational person want to be a member of a church so at odds with them on such an important issue to them?
Come the new admin & update of FSTDT, I trust we will see trolls such as Jerry dealt with.
Perhaps reporting them to their ISPs for abuse of their TOS rules. Exile from the internet as a whole .
Matthew 23:13 & Matthew 7:1, fascist Pharisee Jerry.
@Jerry
<Praise! Indeed, this is the way a Christian church is to deal with perverts and those that defend and support them.
2 Cor 6:14
In the name of the Lord,
Jerry >
2 Cor 6:14
<Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? >
1 Cor 7:12-13
<But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.>
Also, Isaiah 45:7, Jerry
<I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.>
And Donny boy roadmaps for us why some congregations are shrinking and dying off.
Give it about 20 years or so for some of the worst to shuffle off the mortal coil and we'll stop hearing about these people besmirching their faith.
The rest of us will happily go on about our lives.
I'm actually kinda glad they left. Rather than trying to change religion, people should simply give up on it and let it wither away.
That's why I never understood why people are trying to make Christianity more gay-friendly. It's a lost cause, so they should just reject it out of hand.
"Scripture must rule..."
No, there is no "MUST" about it. Religious laws apply to those, and ONLY those, who freely choose that particular interpretation of that particular religion. The family, you will note, voted with their feet. One more empty pew, one more family who found out, first-hand, what an empty shell your religion is, surrounding nothing but a tiny, shriveled, twisted remnant of faith, hope, charity, and love. If they want another religion, plenty of them will embrace them .....but they will never again TRUST a religion as they once did.
@ #1891455
Again, why would a rational person want to be a member of a church so at odds with them on such an important issue to them?
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that that lady attended that church for 60 years and probably thought the other parishioners were her friends. Instead, they ended up treating her as if she did something wrong by supporting her daughter. And, as stated above, her beliefs and behaviors are between her and her god, it's not the congregation's or church officials' place to judge her or anyone else, if they take Christianity seriously. It's usually the fundies who tend to ignore "judge not lest ye be judged."
I'm not saying the church doesn't have the right to kick out who they want, and that people shouldn't join a church which expresses ideas which are contrary to their own, but only the extreme fundie churches kick people out for not toeing the line. The more progressive, open-minded churches tend to accept everyone regardless of personal beliefs. That is why this is fundie.
@NeoMatrix
That's why I never understood why people are trying to make Christianity more gay-friendly.
Likely because the rest of society is becoming more gay friendly, and one would think that religions will eventually catch up. But we all know how hard it is for religions to move forward and have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present. I mean, some of them are still arguing against evolution, and the most extreme are even arguing against heliocentricity and a round earth. But the vast majority of Christians have caught up with modern society.
@Doubting Thomas
Except that religions like Christianity will never catch up, because they are fundamentally corrupt and can never be changed. First it was slavery, then it was segregation, then it was abortion, and now it's gay marriage. This cycle won't end, unless Christianity is torn down.
Also, the vast majority of Christians obviously haven't caught up with modern society yet, if things like this are still happening.
@NeoMatrix:
You're welcome to your opinion, but churches do have to change or die. They have to keep changing doctrine in order to keep the collection plates full, unlike what the church officials mentioned above seem to realize. Which kicking out people who don't agree with doctrine 100% makes a religion tend to border on being a cult.
And we can only hope that more and more people will reject such an ignorant, hateful and bigoted philosophy and also leave the church.
@Ma
Stop feeding the trolls. You're better than that.
@NeoMatrix
And as much as you or I may have no use whatsoever for religion, it will still be going on and on long after we stop walking upon the earth. I'd love to see religion die out in favor of rational thinking, but don't get your hopes up.
@Doubting Thomas
Well, we gotta try. Even if we can't stop it completely, fighting Christianity is still admirable. Who knows, it could be weakened.
@Anon-E-Mosse
"Come the new admin & update of FSTDT, I trust we will see trolls such as Jerry dealt with.
Perhaps reporting them to their ISPs for abuse of their TOS rules. Exile from the internet as a whole."
Oh I see, you're not a fan of freedom of speech then? Yes he says stuff you don't like and that's why you want him banned from the Internet. I don't like him either (although I know he's a poe and not a real fundy), but I'd rather have him there than be aware of a creeping police state that takes people off line just because their words are unpopular.
@NeoMatrix
Except churches *are* changing to be in favor of gay rights. It doesn't make the headline news necessarily, but it is happening.
Actually, the highest corrolation is that the more liberal the church, the quicker it accepts gay rights. Which tells me that the strongest correlation is that *conservatism* is what needs to change or die out.
Of course, considering you agree with conservatives on a lot of bigoted issues, you'll probably hate this because it means that you're one of the ones that'll have to change or become irrelevant... as if you weren't already irrelevant ;)
@NeoMatrix
Well, I'm not as familiar with your comments as I am with Passerby, SpukiKitty, etc., but one thing you do agree with conservatives about is your hostility towards Islam. Of course, unlike conservatives, you hate Christianity as well, so at least you're consistent.
This is a major reason why more and more young adults are walking away from Christianity. Hanging around with hyper judgmental, holier than thou types who can't mind their own fucking business is losing what appeal it ever had. As they lose ground in the culture these types of churches are growing more extreme stances on things they disapprove of. With that kind of "turn on you in a second" christian love, the days of these types of congregations is numbered.
@Anonymous
How does that make me a conservative? That's just being realistic and smart. That, and the fact that Islam stifles dissent both through its adherents and its SJW allies, which makes me oppose it on principle because I loathe censorship.
@NeoMatrix
You can claim you hate conservatives all you want, and I'm sure you even believe it. And yet, I'd rate you a moderate at the very best. One cannot support bigotry and call themselves progressive. And you lap up bigotry like it's koolaid.
Hint: White supremacists also believe they're being "realistic and smart".
@Zachski
Gotta love how you criticize me for judging groups with a broad brush while you immediately judge me as a conservative just because I speak out against Islam and the dangers it represents, even though that's literally the only thing I have in common with conservatives at all.
Categorizing people into groups - isn't that what you hate me for doing?
@NeoMatrix
You can stop projecting onto me, it won't work.
The fact of the matter is, whether you're a conservative, moderate, or right-leaning liberal, you share fallacious ideology with conservatives, and you can either change or be part of the past. And you're going to choose to be part of the past.
@whatever
Just about every other forum/board would have banned Jerry before now. You know the reasons why. Others have been banned from such places much sooner, and for less. Think that's bad, then take the matter up with them.
I refer you to the Twitter troll Brenda Leyland , and what could have potentially happened to her, due to Malicious Communications laws here in the UK. Is Jerry and his ilk so special?
Oxymoron's Razor:
The Christian Bible says the following in 2 Cor 6:14 (as opposed to what you posted):
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
As for 1 Cor 7:12-13, did you notice the following: "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord". Furthermore, the Bible explicitly prohibits divorce, so there is no problem here.
In the name of the Lord,
Jerry
whatever:
Of course heathens like him (and you) hate freedom of speech, such as given to Christians by the US Constitution. The true Christian is here refuting lies about Christianity, in an illustrious and polite manner, always exposing falsehoods with the Truth of the Bible.
Some satanists just can't handle the fact that their uncouth manner, crude language, or proverbial yelling and screaming have no effect on real Christians. Psalm 91:10
Turn or Burn!
Jerry
@Uncouth, Crude Jerry
"uncouth manner, crude language"
http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=113521&Page=1#1869863
@Jerry
"He can surely heal the sickness of homofaggotry !"
http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=113504&Page=3#1871243
@Jerry
"these verses were referring to homofaggotry. "
http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=113521&Page=2#1870320
@Jerry (emph-ass-is added):
"The so-called "age of consent" is a pagan invention and is of no relevance to Christianity or to Jesus. It's one of those silly things we abide by to "give Caesar what's Caesar's".
And there are many ways of bypassing these laws. I married off two of my daughters at 15 years of age. [...] And everything was Biblical, and both of them are in good marriages with young Christian pastors."
(Oh, and in b4 your potential butthurt at my quoting you above. Can you say 'David Koresh'? Also 'Tony Alamo'? I know you can; 'Laws' don't enter into it, you paedo nonce)
...you were saying, Jer? Matthew 7:21-23 (Q JV). [i]Un[/i]turn or Burn! [/Jonathan Edwards]
The prosecution rests, whatever.
If I was Mom, I'd take a third option, join the Episcopalians and accept my Daughter. So, there!
Sadly, I can't rebut this with Jesus because even Jesus said stuff about choosing God over family.
Then again, I see him as using hyperbole and God does not dwell in a church full of hate.
That said, I see "modernizing" churches as not only adapting to the times but also getting back to the roots of The Gospels. If Christianity was practiced the way Jesus preached and lived, things would've turned out a lot more different....a lot more peaceful and humane.
I feel non-frum Christians need to reclaim the Christian faith from the clutches of the Pharisees. If that religion is to survive, it needs to stick more to the New Testament, Liberalize and become more Christlike. We need more ecumenical "Social Gospel" churches and reject Pharisaical Frummy churches.
@NeoMatrix
Even if we can't stop it completely, fighting Christianity is still admirable. Who knows, it could be weakened.
Christianity is doing it to itself, as evidence from the above story. Too many of them refuse to learn that alienating people in favor of hard line doctrine when Christianity is already shrinking is not a good thing.
@Anon-E-Moose
I accept the idea of banning trolls from certain sites, but to ban people from the entire Internet, when so much of daily business depends on the Internet, is foolish and short-sighted.
@Jerry
"The true Christian is here refuting lies about Christianity, in an illustrious and polite manner"...
Where?
"Some satanists just can't handle the fact that their uncouth manner, crude language, or proverbial yelling and screaming have no effect on real Christians."
Oh the irony. Time to admit who you really are.
I think you are Neo-Matrix in disguise!
And Jerry, you're a real piss poor Christian.
You come in here, blow off a brain fart and blame God with "In the name of the Lord,
Jerry"
Wow, Hellbound for sure, as far as you know.
"A good illustration of this principle was recounted in a Chattanooga area church where a mother was required to choose between her church (where she had attended for 60 years) and her lesbian daughter."
“Loving her daughter and supporting her family was not a sin.” Dad declared, “There was nothing to repent about.” He added. “They certainly couldn’t judge her on that because that was between her and her God, and it was not their place to judge her for that.”
She chose... wisely . [/"Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"]
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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